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  #11  
Old 05-02-2018, 08:58 AM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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I'm not saying drawings are bad, absolutely not.

I do feel, however, that the time spent doing something by hand is better spent. It's the first feel for the eventual product. The time spent allows one to envision problems, or add features.

I very often find, that even with drawing in hand, there's always a change required when actually fabricating whatever it is you're doing. But the changes are relatively minor.

I guess I haven't fully embraced the 21st Century yet
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2018, 09:25 AM
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I read this recently https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Build-C.../dp/000819680X

The autobiography of the most succesful F1 designer of all time, Adrian Newey. (his designs won two CART championships and two indy 500s when he was in his 20s)

its an interesting book if you're into racecar engineering or F1 in particular, but one theme the whole way through is his attachment to pencil and paper. He's firmly fixed on it as the starting point of any design.

then sends it to be drawn in cad once the desgin is relatively settled.

There's pros and cons to most tools
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2018, 09:26 AM
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BTW Samm any pics of the finished product?

your link http://www.farmersamm.com/welding-3/...nt-end-loader/ is giving me a 403 access denied error
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  #14  
Old 05-02-2018, 10:21 AM
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greywynd greywynd is offline
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Both pencil/paper and cad have their place.

The million dollar molds I work on are designed with cad, and I’m sure it’s the latest and greatest. We still end up fine tuning the ‘finished’ mold, in the press, by hand.

Farmersamm has some interesting ideas and approaches to things. Not all are maybe ‘conventional’ but he makes them work for him.

Sometimes when people don’t know a ‘conventional’ way to do something they come up with a totally different, ingenious approach to solve a problem.


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  #15  
Old 05-02-2018, 10:51 AM
threepiece threepiece is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmersamm View Post
I'm not saying drawings are bad, absolutely not.

I do feel, however, that the time spent doing something by hand is better spent. It's the first feel for the eventual product. The time spent allows one to envision problems, or add features.

I very often find, that even with drawing in hand, there's always a change required when actually fabricating whatever it is you're doing. But the changes are relatively minor.

I guess I haven't fully embraced the 21st Century yet
While I agree with your comment that CAD is "bullshit" ( for reasons that should be expressed on a different forum) I disagree with this entire post.

I draw nearly everything I make to scale the old fashioned way. I have never used CAD, although I have worked with others on it several times. Mistakes made on paper are much easier to correct than on your workpiece. Scale drawings with different views help me achieve a satisfactory product by showing me design requirements before any material is processed. I want no regrets after finishing a project, big or small, I need the sense of a job well done, drawing is often the only way I can guarantee this. Never have I been unsatisfied with the results when following my drawings.

Drawing your work is as valuable a skill as welding or machining. The complexity of my projects, the quality of my work and the resultant confidence I have in my ability all rose sharply as I learned to draw.

If you find that your drawings are not helping then perhaps they need some scale and/or more views or detail. For me, drawing something not in scale is often useless. I need an accurate perspective to see the requirements. Different views are also sometimes needed, they can show something as simple as clearance for a wrench or socket to be applied.
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  #16  
Old 05-02-2018, 12:35 PM
JBFab JBFab is offline
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I feel that CAD stifles creativity.
This ranks right up there with the most close minded thoughts I have ever heard. Right up there with my then best friend about 15 years ago:

"I don't know why you're spending time learning how to stick weld, it's going to be obsolete in a few years anyhow" - yea, ok buddy.

Don't get me wrong I often sketch ideas and concepts by hand before going to CAD, but the idea that CAD STIFLES creativity is just ludicrous. Without CAD and CNC equipment driven by CAD files, you could expect to pay A LOT more for many of the things you buy today.

The comment that it takes longer to edit a CAD file than a hand drawing - I would say that depends. But again keep in mind, you aren't just modifying a line drawing, you are modifying work instructions for equipment down the line in the fabrication process. I can tell you that CAD in my world has cut our drafting and fabrication time considerably. Yes, there are a few things that could be drawn quicker by hand, but they are few and far between, and the savings for those items come in the CNC instructions generated.
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  #17  
Old 05-02-2018, 12:38 PM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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I don't mind disagreement. It's what makes it all work. Adds interest to whatever is being discussed. Hell, I'm no Guru, I just throw it out there

There have been some questions aimed at modern engineering processes. Especially the way in which failure analysis is going these days. I believe they've abandoned the older x times load analysis, in favor of statistical analysis........just strong enough. I believe this had some ramifications when building/testing the Boeing 787.

Anyways.........I ramble sometimes, but Hell it's just a thread.

Case in point here at the compound

The Mixer From Hell is based on a mono strut design. It will allow the drum to dump almost directly underneath the machine if necessary.

I did an analysis using Beamboy V2.2 (a great low frills program for static load analysis).

The numbers looked good on "paper", but something at the back of my pointy little noggin said Whoa!!

Welds are good, and the material is supposed to take the strain, but common sense, and a bow to fatigue factors during expected use.........I took a pass, and figured on adding some material to the connection.

A 3x overload won't cause yield according to the software, but I'd prefer a 4x factor. You can see that the stress is around 11K at a static point. Three times that is the yield point for A-36....I'd rather hedge my bets. This thing is subject to impact from traveling over rough ground, and sway when the 3pt moves side to side.
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2018, 12:44 PM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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Sometimes, to be perverse (or an asshole ), I'll go with the analysis to prove a point. This ain't one of those times.

By adding a gusset, and coverplate, combo (the gusset serves as both)......I think I'm covered. The upper flange is reinforced, and the gusset moves the moment away from the root of the connection, and spreads it out. In simple terms..........it stiffens it up a bit.

Few bucks worth of steel, and I can relax.

This thing might never reach a 3x overload at that connection, and 4x is probably a bit much......but it's now a sound structure. This is where I feel that looking at, and being the steel is helpful. You can't take this crap in isolation from the real world.
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  #19  
Old 05-02-2018, 02:25 PM
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LW Hiway LW Hiway is offline
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FS', just to note, your able to post freely until you are thought to piss on the toes of the collective few. Assholes come and go and are particularly easy to spot once the light is turned on in a room.

Of course, I've had as much luck with using a concrete floor as a drawing board, a 4x8 ply board or a paper napkin, do own two different programs with seeming power to create 3d as well as basic but choose to make use of time without spending it grasping at straws.

I've looked at different programs for drawing and have as much or more success with the simple 'Paint' accessory program within a Window box.

It's what works for each of us that gets use.

Back to the subject or what works and what does not. If it works, it works.

If I thought one process would disappear I'd be left in the dust of historical inaccuracies and of course forgotten abilities and process's that seem to come back to haunt us over the course of a 100 years or so. If I was wrong, then why do we still find the need to use Babbitt, or Lead to pick and file body work. Heat and beat edges on shredder blades over grinding etc etc.

I've seen a few of the lifting aids much like you have in use, one of which was attached to the front of a tractor and had legs that made ground contact lifting the front wheels off ground for stability much like found on a walking crane or backhoe footprint. Did allow for it to swing a few degree's left and right of the front grill allowing the user to have a smidge of control for item placement. Odd looking to be found on the front of a tractor, but the damn thing worked like a charm for his needs in picking up broadcasting bags of media for aircraft dropping etc and filling his ground planter containers in the field. Not remembering exactly how much these bags way while holding pre-sprout rice seed for air drops, it's a hell of a lot more than just dry seed rice.

His build in particular was no more robust than what you are using and has not failed in it's structure with over 40+ years in use by several locals, me included.

If it works, damn the dissenters, full bead ahead.

For my builds considering the 'one arm' FEL's, if I thought I was going to break a little tractor in two pieces I would not even consider the optional accessory for them. Of course my being not willing to pay 3 to 4 grand for a used worn out accessory is my bidness. Making two to sell one is a win win.

I'll be posting pics of my entry level non-professional backyard small shop hobby equipped tooling stick and tin building dirt dobber nest infected non-professional poured slab dirt front work area ability. It's laughable how much time I spend before falling asleep thinking on a particular portion of a yet to happen projects point.

I've spent now a good 10 hrs putting together a full sized wooden proof of concept mockup of the one arm loaders with the exception of cyls and full blown bucket. I did mock the back of the bucket, but not the scoop portions.

Using two ele winches to pick up the boom and rotate the bucket back in full deflection.

Someone on here said it best, CAD, crayon assisted drawings. Kudo's on that definition. lol
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  #20  
Old 05-02-2018, 03:21 PM
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milomilo milomilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmersamm View Post
I'm not saying drawings are bad, absolutely not.

I do feel, however, that the time spent doing something by hand is better spent. It's the first feel for the eventual product. The time spent allows one to envision problems, or add features.

I very often find, that even with drawing in hand, there's always a change required when actually fabricating whatever it is you're doing. But the changes are relatively minor.

I guess I haven't fully embraced the 21st Century yet
Agree completely with the above, especially the last sentence. It sounds like my thinking. I have not drawn a plan for anything I built for years.
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