Project discussion - newbie with zero knowledge.

[Scootered]

Originally Posted by toprecycler

With the last pdf drawing, it looks like I could build them off the paper as drawn. Like mentioned earlier, it might help if you dimensioned from one side, that way if the machinest was off on the length, with in tolerances given of course, the holes might not line up as good as desired. As machinists, we like working to .001” of an inch, but we are human and sometimes mess up, and we need to know if the parts will work, or need to remake them.

I understand your reluctance to tell us what the parts are for, because you just want them made, and not redesigned by someone else. I personally like knowing more info about the parts I am making, because if I can understand what they are for, then I can make a better informed judgment about how to go about making them. For instance, knowing now that you want one piece welded to a piece of galvanized pipe, I would slot the back side with a square slot instead of a rounded slot. That way I don’t have to buy a special tool for the one job. But, the welder could weld it to the pipe without the slot anyways.

As a welder, I would ask if you really need to use galvanized pipe, because if precautionary measures are not taken, welding galvanized pipes can be very dangerous to your health. So, these are some of the reasons some of us like to know as much info as possible.

When I made my wooden prototype parts, the first thing I did was run the wood through my table saw, to get it exactly 1" wide. I ran it through sideways to get them to be 3/8" thick. I was working with two or three foot long sections, so I lined up two pieces with the ends together, and then drilled all four holes at once. Two drillings, and then I cut the parts to length. Hollowing out the back of one was the last thing I did. I don't suppose that listing the steps would be too much information to give on a drawing? Wouldn't that be insulting to the machinist? I mean, I don't like being told how to do something, if I'm also being told what results are wanted. We built a gazebo last year in the backyard, and I knew what the end result was, so being told how to do it too meant that I'd never make anyone happy. They just let me go to it, and the final product looked like it was supposed to look. They were happy with the results, and I didn't have to worry about anyone standing over me saying "You're doing that wrong" all the time.

I would tell people what it is, but I just know that everyone would stop thinking about how to do the parts, and start thinking about the thing itself. It's happened to me every time I've tried to make something that wasn't an off-the-shelf thing.

I have to use galvanized, because that is what I have on hand. A piece of pipe that isn't galvanized is almost $50 at Lowes, and that's too expensive. So, I gotta work with what I have. Could I "sand off" the galvanized? Would that help? I have a respirator I use when I'm doing staining and finishing, so I could use that. I'm going to paint it anyway.

I've got to get to bed, or I'm going to be useless tomorrow. Thanks for the comments. I really am getting this.

[LKeithR]

Originally Posted by Scootered

That explains it just fine. The only thing that still bothers me a little is A) if the parts are 3.5" long, and the holes are each .5" from the ends, then if they're cut that far off from the measurement, they wouldn't be in the right place to begin with. A 16th is a lot...

If the part is a little short (or long) and the holes are measured from both ends then they won't be the correct distance apart. If the part is off a bit but the holes are measured from one end only then they will be the correct distance apart even if the overall part is not right. Depending on how critical all your dimensions are this could be what determines whether they go together or not.

...I'm thinking that I might try to get my hands on some metal somewhere, and see what I can actually make on my own. For some reason, this just doesn't seem to be as hard as I thought it was going to be up front. Of course, I had delusions of some shiny metal part that looked cool. The more I think about it, I'm really not going to care what it looks like, as long as it does what I want it to do...

Perhaps not a bad idea. While I don't think you're actually going to be able to make these parts by hand working with some steel would give you an idea of how much difference there is between the two. Taking a file and a hacksaw to a piece of steel will give you an idea of how tough it is compared to wood.

As far as appearance is concerned you're right, function is usually more important but, on the other hand, a good craftsman always strives to make his parts--whatever they're made of--look as good as possible...

[LKeithR]

Originally Posted by Scootered

...I have to use galvanized, because that is what I have on hand.

While I understand your situation you shouldn't fall into the habit of letting "what you have" always determine how you build something and how it looks when it's finished. A lot of the guys on here will do that and sometimes things work out but sometimes they end up with a less than adequate part (I'll probably get ripped for that statement ). Perhaps I should clarify by saying that it's often OK to use what you have on hand but if you're building something that really requires a specific material in order to look good don't let your "cheap" gene get in the way of doing a job right.

I've been working with metal for nearly 50 years and there have been many times when I've "made do" with what I had on hand but, since I do this for a living, I've also learned to understand when you have to bite the bullet and pay what it takes to get the right material in order to make a customer happy...

...A piece of pipe that isn't galvanized is almost $50 at Lowes, and that's too expensive. So, I gotta work with what I have. Could I "sand off" the galvanized? Would that help? I have a respirator I use when I'm doing staining and finishing, so I could use that. I'm going to paint it anyway...

Removing the galvanized coating is a good idea. You'll get some "smell" from the dust but with a respirator you'll be fine. It's far better than sucking in the fumes from welding galvanized material.

If you were closer I'd have no qualms about showing you around our shop--y'all can come up for a visit any time you want.

As far as the pipe goes I'll bet there are more than a few members on here who have a chunk of 1-1/4" steel (ungalvanized) pipe kickin' around. Play nice and maybe one of them will throw a chunk in a flat rate box and send it to you. I would but shipping stuff across the border is a pain in the ass...

[toprecycler]

Pick up a 6” pipe nipple at the big box store and cut the threads off the end. Assuming 6” is long enough. I don’t remember how you saying how long the pipe part is, which isn’t critical to having the parts made, but was critical to me helping brainstorm ways for you to get some cheaper.

Thinking about it some more, I think you could make these parts by yourself in your own shop. Like Kieth said, a hacksaw and file will get the shape you need, and will just take your own elbow grease and time. They will be as perfect as you want/ need them to be depending on the amount of time you put into them.

As to telling the machinist how to make the parts, will depend on the attitude of the person. Most probably will be put off if told how it is to be done. Myself, if while talking with the customer about the part, and the customer mentioned that he was going to try to make it a certain way, I would definitely think about that way, but ultimately might do it a totally different way, depending on the tools that I have in my shop to work with.

It would be like you making something with wood one way in your shop, and taking that same item to your friend down the road with all the fancy tools, and he does it totally different because he has different tools to work with.

Honestly, to any shop, the cost of the plain steel will be minimal compared to the labor rate to machine those parts. When you talk to a machinist, he will be doing his best to make it as perfect as possible, and you will be paying for that effort. When you are working with tools that can cost upwards of $50,000-$100,000 you have to take the proper time to do things right, or very bad and expensive problems can be made. With that said, you might find a home hobbyists that has a small home shop that would do these for you just for the challenge of it and have the material needed for very reasonable, compared to a larger commercial machine shop. Their overhead costs are much different. And they might not be much interested in such a small project, so they might price it very high trying to scare you off, but going to really make it worth their while if you still want them to do it.

The price could also depend on their current workload. I know my boss will play with the price quotes depending on the workload. If we are really busy and have several weeks of work waiting, then it’s full price. If we are really slow, he might cut the price in order to get the job in the door. A lot depends on things outside his control.

Sorry, got sidetracked there, but the point was, if when you say that certain things don’t really matter like the grooves in the final project, just because you can put the grooves in with a cut off grinder by hand at home, does not mean a machinist will do that just because “it’s good enough for what it’s for”


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[JohnBoy]

Originally Posted by Scootered

As opposed to all the baby boomers who screwed up the economy and left nothing for us?

Please don't be so patronizing and dismissive. It only makes you look like a bully. You wouldn't accept that kind of treatment from me, and I'm sure not going to take it from you. This isn't Ancient Rome where everyone has to pay obedience and worship the "Pater" father figure just because he's older than everyone else.

Ah lad, relax, one minute you're talking about how you use hyperbole and not to be taken too literally, the next minute you're jumping up and down about the patriarchy's hyperbole.


Anyone under 50 is a millenial to 75% of the membership here


The flipside of them all being ancient is they've been around the block and are happy to share their wisdom, some of the wisdom they share (like pipe vs tube for example) might not seem 100% directly relevant to todays question but is still very pertinent to your metal education.



On your design, someone mentioned already, but I think it may have gotten lost in the thread, that the radius on the back is probably irrelevant if the piece is being welded. the radius will be a lot harder and hence expensive to cut than a square sided channel which would still sit the jaw on the pipe perfectly for welding.

[digger doug]

Originally Posted by Scootered

As opposed to all the baby boomers who screwed up the economy and left nothing for us?

Please don't be so patronizing and dismissive. It only makes you look like a bully. You wouldn't accept that kind of treatment from me, and I'm sure not going to take it from you. This isn't Ancient Rome where everyone has to pay obedience and worship the "Pater" father figure just because he's older than everyone else.

I can't understand why anyone would devote a single second more to helping this wanker....

[midmosandblasting]

Don't you remember being that age ?I sure do. No old person would help because you were a kid .I found a few mentors that taught me a lot .

[platypus20]

I can’t help you with the machining issues, but if you need advise on how to handle minions, damn, I’m your man.................

[GWIZ]

Originally Posted by JohnBoy

On your design, someone mentioned already, but I think it may have gotten lost in the thread, that the radius on the back is probably irrelevant if the piece is being welded. the radius will be a lot harder and hence expensive to cut than a square sided channel which would still sit the jaw on the pipe perfectly for welding.

That is pretty much it.
figure the radius could take 3-4hrs not including setup.

The idea is to get as much information an use that to cut cost, figure saving close to 50% in money not cutting a radius.

[toprecycler]

Originally Posted by GWIZ

That is pretty much it.

figure the radius could take 3-4hrs not including setup.

As to GWIZ drawing, one thing that stands out at me, if you change the angle of the top grooves to 90 degrees versus 60 degrees, the machinist could clamp the block at 45 degrees in a vice, and machine the grooves with a regular endmill of basically any size. To get the 60 degree would take a more special cutter, or a flycutter setup, which would take more time or money, depending on the tooling available already to the machinist.

I just watched a utube video couple weeks ago by Joe Pie....ski showing how to do this very thing. Was an interesting video to me, and I learned a couple things.

Another good utube series is ClickSpring. He had a series about making a clock, and he did some very intricate work, a lot of times making the very tools he needed to do the work. He comes at the subject from the point of how did the very first items were made with basic hand tools hundreds of years ago. If you watch some of these videos, it will make you appreciate the technology we have today.


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