Shop Floor Talk  

Go Back   Shop Floor Talk > Welding and Metalworking Forums > Machining

SFT Search:   
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:32 PM
GWIZ's Avatar
GWIZ GWIZ is offline
SFT Historian
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 7,436
Default

Maybe the mag starter feeding the INPUT to the VFD, lets see what precisionworks has to say about this.

That would place the machine controls feeding the VFD.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 10-28-2009, 04:20 PM
allessence's Avatar
allessence allessence is offline
Gadget Girl
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MA, 01543
Posts: 6,916
Default

The mag starter is 3phase. I did look inside it and I'm not sure I could use it even if I used 240 1phase.

On the bandsaw the fuse box is wired for 3 phase. Would it be possible to remove one leg and use the box for 1 phase or should I just find a handy box and put that on?

On another note. The welder is 240 single phase, so the wiring itself you have to be serperated out for the VFD and the welder????

Last edited by allessence; 10-28-2009 at 04:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Bolt Bolt is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,267
Default

You can scrap the mag starter completely. Ideally, you would have a single phase 240 input, with 2 sets of fuses, one to the VFD, one to the blade welder. Then the VFD straight to the motor. But, depending on your application, you could also run a double pole breaker to the VFD, and seperate double pole breaker to welder. You can use the 3 phase fuse block with 2 phases, just leave on out. Some/most mag starters will work fine with a single phase supply and load too. Some with an overload you need to loop one of the legs back through the 3rd leg to trick it.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:56 PM
precisionworks's Avatar
precisionworks precisionworks is offline
American Tools Keep Americans Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Benton, IL
Posts: 3,177
Default

A VFD is code approved for use as a motor starter & motor protection device, so you can eliminate the mag starter.

VFD's come without an On-Off switch & you need to provide one. I use a Square D 60 amp disconnect, about $16 at Ace Hardware (the small, grey box to the left of the SMVector drive).

You'll want to run power to the blade welder through a pair of fuses. The blade welder has a "weld" and an "anneal" pushbutton that control power, plus a switch for the grinder, so no seperate switches are needed for it.

As the VFD manual say, run power from the disconnect into the VFD, then run the VFD output to the motor - your setup should look something like the one on the drill press. You can control Start-Stop and Speed up-Speed down from the VFD, or you can use the machine's Start-Stop switch to control the VFD.

That should get you started
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	drill17.jpg
Views:	184
Size:	99.4 KB
ID:	52075  
__________________
Barry Milton - Please email or PayPal through PrecisionWorks.co
PM's are disabled
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-28-2009, 08:27 PM
allessence's Avatar
allessence allessence is offline
Gadget Girl
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MA, 01543
Posts: 6,916
Default

Okay, so I can use the standard fuse box and only hook up 2 legs. This has an on/off in it.

I remove the mag starter. This one has the magnetic coil in it vs the retainers that mechanically hold it like my Johnson J saw.


I mount the VFD on the Saw frame where the mag starter was and run one set of wires to the VFD and one set to the Welder unit from the 3 phase fuse box. Can I connect the wires onto the terminals like they did in the mag starter?

Can I use the 3 phase fuse box as an on/off?

Does this sound about right?

The instructions for the VFD read like a recipe on how to make Frankenstein.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	38.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	97.6 KB
ID:	52077   Click image for larger version

Name:	39.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	98.6 KB
ID:	52078   Click image for larger version

Name:	40.jpg
Views:	115
Size:	96.5 KB
ID:	52079   Click image for larger version

Name:	41.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	97.8 KB
ID:	52080   Click image for larger version

Name:	42.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	98.6 KB
ID:	52081  


Last edited by allessence; 10-29-2009 at 07:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-28-2009, 09:26 PM
Bolt Bolt is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,267
Default

I wouldn't use the factory on/off to turn the power to the drive off, but use the keypad start/stop buttons, or you can wire external buttons to the VFD's control terminals, like an emergency stop, or a potentiometer to adjust the speed, etc. But seeing as how you ordered a sealed drive, you will want it out in the open where it's easy to reach, and you can use it for your speed adjustment, but I would personally add an external start/stop switch to make it easier to turn on and off when using it. I would leave the drive powered up at all times, but I'm sure precisionworks will chime in soon. You run your two hot legs through the fuses, and into the drive. Then run your three wires (plus ground) from the drive to the motor.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-28-2009, 10:52 PM
precisionworks's Avatar
precisionworks precisionworks is offline
American Tools Keep Americans Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Benton, IL
Posts: 3,177
Default

Quote:
I wouldn't use the factory on/off to turn the power to the drive off, but use the keypad start/stop buttons, or you can wire external buttons to the VFD's control terminals, like an emergency stop, or a potentiometer to adjust the speed, etc. But seeing as how you ordered a sealed drive, you will want it out in the open where it's easy to reach, and you can use it for your speed adjustment, but I would personally add an external start/stop switch to make it easier to turn on and off when using it. I would leave the drive powered up at all times, but I'm sure precisionworks will chime in soon. You run your two hot legs through the fuses, and into the drive. Then run your three wires (plus ground) from the drive to the motor.
Very well said

The drive can remain powered up 24/7/365, and many run that way in factories for decades. The only advantage to killing power to the drive is that it keeps a big power surge, like a nearby lightning strike, from zapping the drive. Your choice, and either way is fine.

Quote:
instructions for the VFD read like a recipe on how to make Frankenstein.
The user manual is 90% stuff you will never use & 10% details that you have to have to operate the drive. Here's the way I commission a drive ...

1) Provide 240 volt power to the drive & connect the drive to the motor (pages 14-15 in the manual). People do sometimes connect the drive incorrectly, and it is possible to fry one at this stage. If in doubt, call tech support.

2) Set the basic parameters. To get into the program loop on the SMVector, look on page 22 under parameter setting. Push the M button and PASS will appear (that means it wants your password). Push the UP arrow until the display reads 0225, which is the factory set password. Push the M button again so the drive accepts the password.

Arrow up to P102 (minimum freq) and put in 10. Press the M button.

Arrow up to P103 (max freq) and put in 90. Press the M button.

Arrow up to P104 (accel time) and put in 5. Press the M button.

You've just set the basic parameters. Minimum freq is 10 Hz, so minimum motor speed is 10/60 (1/6) of full rpm. Maximum freq is 90 Hz, so the motor can be run at 90/60 (1.5) of normal rpm. Accel time is 5 seconds, so it will take the saw 5 seconds to go from a dead stop to your preset speed. You can go back and change any of these at any time by reentering the 0225 password.

3) Set the advanced vector parameters (page 36).

Arrow up to P300 and enter 4, press M.

Enter P302-P306 from the data on the motor nameplate.

Set P399 = 1 and push START

The drive will run through an auto calibration sequence that takes about 40 seconds, while making some Twilight Zone noises.

Those settings will get you going and you will see if you like them or not.

The rest of the manual is a sleeping pill in flat form

The next drive is a piece of cake compared to the first one.
__________________
Barry Milton - Please email or PayPal through PrecisionWorks.co
PM's are disabled
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:05 AM
allessence's Avatar
allessence allessence is offline
Gadget Girl
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MA, 01543
Posts: 6,916
Default

So, the on/off on the fuse box can be used to kill the power completely, but I should try and find an run/stop for the VFD to act as a handy run/kill switch.

What should I be looking for in the switch?

The manual said I need a 25amp fuse for the drive.

The 3 in the fuse panel are each 15amps dual element time delay.

Should I just purchase 2) 25amp dual element time delay?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	43.jpg
Views:	128
Size:	89.0 KB
ID:	52082   Click image for larger version

Name:	44.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	91.9 KB
ID:	52083   Click image for larger version

Name:	45.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	93.0 KB
ID:	52084  

Last edited by allessence; 10-29-2009 at 07:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:17 AM
allessence's Avatar
allessence allessence is offline
Gadget Girl
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MA, 01543
Posts: 6,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
Very well said

The drive can remain powered up 24/7/365, and many run that way in factories for decades. The only advantage to killing power to the drive is that it keeps a big power surge, like a nearby lightning strike, from zapping the drive. Your choice, and either way is fine.

The user manual is 90% stuff you will never use & 10% details that you have to have to operate the drive. Here's the way I commission a drive ...

1) Provide 240 volt power to the drive & connect the drive to the motor (pages 14-15 in the manual). People do sometimes connect the drive incorrectly, and it is possible to fry one at this stage. If in doubt, call tech support.

2) Set the basic parameters. To get into the program loop on the SMVector, look on page 22 under parameter setting. Push the M button and PASS will appear (that means it wants your password). Push the UP arrow until the display reads 0225, which is the factory set password. Push the M button again so the drive accepts the password.

Arrow up to P102 (minimum freq) and put in 10. Press the M button.

Arrow up to P103 (max freq) and put in 90. Press the M button.

Arrow up to P104 (accel time) and put in 5. Press the M button.

You've just set the basic parameters. Minimum freq is 10 Hz, so minimum motor speed is 10/60 (1/6) of full rpm. Maximum freq is 90 Hz, so the motor can be run at 90/60 (1.5) of normal rpm. Accel time is 5 seconds, so it will take the saw 5 seconds to go from a dead stop to your preset speed. You can go back and change any of these at any time by reentering the 0225 password.

3) Set the advanced vector parameters (page 36).

Arrow up to P300 and enter 4, press M.

Enter P302-P306 from the data on the motor nameplate.

Set P399 = 1 and push START

The drive will run through an auto calibration sequence that takes about 40 seconds, while making some Twilight Zone noises.

Those settings will get you going and you will see if you like them or not.

The rest of the manual is a sleeping pill in flat form

The next drive is a piece of cake compared to the first one.
Thanks Barry, This makes so much more sense. I've got to go to work this morning, but plan on getting the VFD installed this afternoon.

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:47 AM
precisionworks's Avatar
precisionworks precisionworks is offline
American Tools Keep Americans Working
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Benton, IL
Posts: 3,177
Default

You're certainly welcome

There's no need to make a simple device complicated, but the engineers who write the user manuals try to cover every contingency. Most industrial, factory, or process VFD's are never touched by an operator - I've seen more than a few in a locked cabinet with a glass front so the display was visible. They often use a PLC (programmable logic control) that "tells" the drive when to ramp up, ramp down, etc. Many items in the user manual are needed for those situations.

Quote:
the on/off on the fuse box can be used to kill the power completely, but I should try and find an run/stop for the VFD to act as a handy run/kill switch.
The fuse box, if located in a convenient place, can act as a disconnect. The only function of the disconnect is to power up or power down the drive - most times I power all the drives on & leave them on while in the shop, then power all the drives off at the end of the day - not a big deal if you forget to kill the power.

A "kill switch" or E-stop does not break the power leads going into the drive, nor the ones going to the motor. Using small control wiring (like telephone cable) the switch is connected to the control terminals of the drive (see photo, the terminals are labeled 1-17), and the drive is reconfigured so that it recognizes the E-stop. You probably want to wait till later to do this.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	drill15.jpg
Views:	134
Size:	95.5 KB
ID:	52085  
__________________
Barry Milton - Please email or PayPal through PrecisionWorks.co
PM's are disabled
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Web Search:

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.