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  #11  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by greywynd View Post
As to the school system, they really haven’t been recommending trades here since before I was in school. The schools here have all mostly phased out the shops, and letting the community colleges handle it instead.


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Same here I also think killing the shops in schools also lowered Insurance cost.
In the US
I came to the conclusion that colleges put in a fix to push loans and not a whole lot about education, add on prerequisites that are not needed just to get more money.

Looks like the student debt in 2014 is close to 1.3 Trillion.


The US has pretty much outlawed any hobbies that would give children hands on experience.
With an exception of growing pot.
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  #12  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:05 AM
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I always told my students to have a saleable skill when they finished high school. Take business math, word processing or book keeping. If the neighbor was fixing a wall or building a shed offer to help. Any skill you learn is something people can't take away from you. The "Shop" and "Home Economics" classes are a joke. They don't learn to use a hammer or a saw in shop, they might hurt themselves. Cooking and sewing is out too, there might be blood or burns involved. I asked one of the "Guidance" people what their criteria was for sending students to BOCES. She said the ones that were social problems or in danger of quitting school. I told her she was sending the wrong students. I was told I should be college prep. My question to the guidance counselor was, "If I don't go to college after the 'Prep' what am I qualified for then? Selling shoes? I took technical vocational, had part of my apprenticeship done and still went to college. The jobs I had during college were based on the training I had in high school. I didn't have college loans either. The way the education system is working, we will have people educated beyond their intelligence, working at jobs that won't pay their loans back, living with their parents till they qualify for Social Security, that will be next to nothing by the time they are old enough to get it. Here I'm preaching to the choir, but when I brought this up to the "Powers" in education, I was "scheduled" for other discussion sessions during the next Superintendent Conference Days.
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  #13  
Old 06-13-2018, 10:22 AM
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In North America, post secondary ‘academia’ is a business. Not a typical business, but still a business. They just keep cranking out students (products) whether they have a sale (job) or not.

A friend grew up in Europe, finished high school in grade 10. Then went and did an ‘apprenticeship’ in hotel management.

Here in Onterrible that would be a 2-3 year community college course, full time studies, that would likely cost $20-30K per year or more depending on different factors.

In her case, as an apprentice, she worked and earned, versus paying out. The big difference is that some of the academic bleeding hearts no longer have a job ‘teaching’ that, and all the infrastructure costs that go along with it.


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  #14  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokinDodge View Post
People have been institutionalized that you HAVE to go to college.
This. My Mom and Dad made it clear that I would go to college and graduate. Thankfully, I was able to extend what I was good at growing up into what I do today, except designing stuff and at times building it.
I will say, that for whatever reason (maturity, mindset, whatever it was and is), I was happier building cabinets than anything else I have done. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I could support the lifestyle I perpetuate doing that, unless I took what we had, and ramped it way up. And at that point, I don't think it would be as enjoyable anymore.
Still trying to figure out some things to do as a side gig to make me content, but life as usual happened, and changed my direction a bit. We'll see. I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.
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  #15  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:20 PM
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I’ve more welding in the past 3 weeks at work, than I’ve done in the last 3 months.
Thank God your still 30 something.

If a college was interested in making educated viable graduates over making money, things might be different.

Look at any budget for a football team or basketball or what ever and look at what's available for the student for learning. Having a far left leaning prof is not a solution for a well rounded education.

I've talked about the 'best job I ever had' before and if not for a fucking ex, I'd probably retired from it. lol

My lead/supervisor(working hands on, not looking over) tried to get me to stay saying that out of 40 guys on the crew, I was the only one that could do the work and fix anything needing maintenance.

When I started there, I found several machines unused due to maintenance issues and no one in the large shop, 140 plus welders/machinists etc, that could be relied upon thus making it to rely on contract labor or offsite repairs.

To be told by your boss and the owner of the company 'your needed and please do not leave' is something that is hard to pass on. Even the offer of more pay was not accepted as getting away from the ex was needed to stay out of jail for murder. (I could see it ending thus).

Props Jack for sticking it to, uh um, making your mark on the company you work for.
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  #16  
Old 06-13-2018, 03:32 PM
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I work with a lot of high school and college students doing the horse stuff and I try to talk to them about their plans. We do have several kids that are doing vocational classes, but it's really is sad what they are learning.

We have a couple girls that are doing an equine program. It is written for the lowest common denominator so they are starting kids out with basic horse care type knowledge. Shit you should have known long before your senior year if you want to make a living training horses a year later.

They don't learn any business management or book keeping and they don't learn horse training because that doesn't happen at a desk. The jobs they end up qualifying for when they're done don't take any certificate or degree, and another kid that has some hands on experience and work ethic will get the position long before these kids coming out of the work program ever will.

I have seen the same thing with the local welding programs. Kids coming out that don't know anything besides whether they like blue or red. They can probably weld well enough to be an assembly welder in a factory but unless they go on to a community college or get an apprenticeship they will never get a job doing anything critical.

The educators don't know the trades and they set up courses that don't teach them well. Not only do they discourage kids from going that route, but the courses don't set the kids up to be successful. You can pick the program that is designed to fail and get brow beat in the process or you can get in line for a college loan like everybody else.
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  #17  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:06 PM
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One of the new minions, just graduated from some kind of vocational school. He has a welding certificate, as long as it’s mig and as long as it’s flat, clean and the machine is set up properly, he may be your man. He was told that stick welding is passé, and so 19th century, no one in their right mind bothers with stick welding.

So he is worthless, in my business, 95% of all the welding is done with stick. Gawd, I hate people, out of the 50-75 or so minions the boss has ran through the ranks in the last 10 years, we have exactly one, that is worth a shit, Eric, hard working, wants to progress in the business, learn all he can, shows up on time, prepared to work, get dirty and actually accomplish the job at hand.

As we were working today, Eric said the company is starting to f*#k with him, expense checks, 2-3 days late, forgetting to pay him overtime, so he will get paid for the overtime he worked this week, 2-3 weeks from now. They scheduled him to work the weekend of his brothers wedding, even though they knew 8-10 weeks in advance.

At times the company seems to have to jerk your chain, or remind you who is in command, they seem to either enjoy, look on it as a perk or feel it’s a requirement, to their management style (or the lack there of).
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  #18  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywynd View Post
In North America, post secondary ‘academia’ is a business. Not a typical business, but still a business. They just keep cranking out students (products) whether they have a sale (job) or not.

A friend grew up in Europe, finished high school in grade 10. Then went and did an ‘apprenticeship’ in hotel management.
Blody hell, its nice to see guys I respect come to the same conclusions I did about "higher education" a.k.a. socialist indoctrination.
This guy said it best.
Formal education will make you a living;
Self education will make you a fortune.- Jim Rohn
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  #19  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Shade View Post

I have seen the same thing with the local welding programs. Kids coming out that don't know anything besides whether they like blue or red. They can probably weld well enough to be an assembly welder in a factory but unless they go on to a community college or get an apprenticeship they will never get a job doing anything critical.
Seeing this with some of the applicants here for our open weld positions. They have recently graduated from a welding program of some sort, but they can't read drawings, and some don't even know the weld symbols...
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:39 PM
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When I graduated from high school about 49 years ago, a lot of my classmates were bound for university, some wanted to go into the trades, but a lot of us, myself included, didn't have clue one what we were going to be doing a few years down the road.
I did take some schooling towards becoming an electronics engineering technologist, but soon learned my talents didn't lie in that field, so for a couple of years I did whatever it took to pay my bills and make ends meet. I more or less fell into a job that I found that I liked, one that I was good at, and eventually made a good living at in the natural gas industry.
That job was physically demanding, required a hell of a lot of overtime and out of town travel, all while working outdoors in conditions from freezing the balls off a brass monkey right up to hotter than hell. It gave me experience from the well head right up to the end user, which equipped me extremely well for the time I got out of the construction end of the business and went into the maintenance end of things (where I still worked overtime, spent time out of town, worked in all kinds of weather conditions, dealt with fools, useless minions, thick headed managers, ignorant clods etc).
I have had talks with a few young people over the years, and advised them to consider the technical trades rather than automatically dismiss them and feel they had to get a degree or two in order to be successful in life.
I know that in my case, I made a lot better living than some of the university grads I knew who came out of university with a boat load of debt, and not much in the way of job prospects.
I did get a lot of on the job and job related class training, but mostly got a very broad ranging education from the school of hard knocks.
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