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  #21  
Old 05-17-2009, 12:56 AM
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Dave Lee Dave Lee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs2244 View Post
This is how the pros suggest it to be done.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/ai...ng-diagram.pdf

BTW, I have good luck just using epoxy on copper pipe joining.
Haven’t had any leaks yet.
That's the diagram that I used to plumb a small factory at my last real job. Good info.

I've seen that epoxy in the plumbing sections of stores but, I'm a little leery of it. If you've had good luck with it, more power to ya'.


Dave
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2009, 04:43 AM
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Default Cast Elbow with mounting "ears"

I think the are called "drop ells". They are a cast copper 90*fitting, sweat on one end, with 1/2NPT on the other. More importantly, the have mounting "ears" on them that let you screw it to the wall. They are great for the shower spout to supply line connection.

They also work great to anchor the airline at the quick coupling. I do not know if there are other fittings that have mounting ears avaliable, but it sure would be handy.

McMaster Carr has some nylon plastic blocks that I like for mounting lines. Last homeshop I helped to finish, we used 2x's laid flat, 19.2" on center, for two main reasons.

One reason was to increase the insulation capacity of the existing 2x4 wall. The other was to provide continous "ribbons" of solid blocking for surface mounting conduit/outlets, and airline mounting. Outlets are ~19.2" above the air line run.

We used 2x6's for the main outlet and airline runs, the others were 2x6's ripped in half. (One 2x6 is Cheaper than two 2x3, for some reason.) I even pitched the airline 2x6 (1/16" per foot [1/4" on 4 foot level]) to follow the airline slope.

The copper type "L" 3/4 inch "main" is configured with the 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/2" Tee's pointing up, then a 2" length of 1/2" pipe, then a "drop ell", then a brass street ell, then the airline quick-coupler.

Thus, with this layout, any water is free to flow back to the tank. The brass street ell, lets the quick coupler point straight down, rather than straight out from the wall. This is just to keep the quick couplers more "tucked in".

Pretty nice system, well secured to the sheetrocked (5/8" firecode rated, just because) wall, (pet peeve of mine is loose "crap" supposedly screwed to the wall), nicely pitched back to tank, rust free, and no where near the effort of black iron pipe.

The blocking worked nice for the outlet runs too. So well, that if I could get a good deal on some "surplus", next project, I would consider using plywood, (craigslist?) under the sheetrock. mark
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2009, 11:20 AM
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Lu47Dan Lu47Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs2244 View Post
This is how the pros suggest it to be done.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/ai...ng-diagram.pdf

BTW, I have good luck just using epoxy on copper pipe joining.
Haven’t had any leaks yet.
They make a flat statement that copper should not be used , but copper is used in industry , manufacturing , and maintenance facilities around the country for air lines .
Their diagram is a basic system which gives a good starting point for a home shop system .
When designing your system for your shop you need to take into account ceiling height , window heights , the height of your man door(s) , and the height of your garage door(s) . in determining at what height the main is run . Sometimes pulling air off the top of the main is not practical , drops run out the side or even the out the bottom drops work well if you remember to drain the drip leg on them .
Steel is a great material but it does have its draw backs , more labor intensive , need specialty tools to cut and thread it , and has corrosion issues .
Copper can be done with a hacksaw and a propane torch if necessary .
Epoxy gluing of joints is something that I have no experience with so I can not comment on .
KBS , You might want to start a thread on how to use the epoxy method , as some of the members might want to know how it is done .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Lee View Post
I've seen that epoxy in the plumbing sections of stores but, I'm a little leery of it. If you've had good luck with it, more power to ya'.
Dave
Dave , all I can say is we don't use it in the trade as of yet .
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoprat View Post
I think the are called "drop ells". They are a cast copper 90*fitting, sweat on one end, with 1/2NPT on the other. More importantly, the have mounting "ears" on them that let you screw it to the wall. They are great for the shower spout to supply line connection.
Mark the correct term for them is Drop Eared 90*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lu47Dan View Post
Related Fittings
There is a whole host of related fittings , but the majority of them are little use in a compressed air system . To name a few , drop ear ninety , Hyset elbows , these come in various designs mostly with female threads for attaching shower heads and the like .
I didn't say they are of no use , but I have had trouble with them in the past on air systems .
One of the troubles with cast copper fittings is porosity in them , especially ones cast overseas . Testing the system is when this will pop up .
Now onto the next installment of fittings . Dan
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2009, 11:56 AM
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Default Special purpose fittings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lu47Dan View Post
Mark the correct term for them is Drop Eared 90*

I didn't say they are of no use , but I have had trouble with them in the past on air systems .
One of the troubles with cast copper fittings is porosity in them , especially ones cast overseas . Testing the system is when this will pop up .
Now onto the next installment of fittings . Dan
Good to know the correct name. They do a nice job of anchoring the shower head to the wall. (and airline taps too) Are there better options? Imported crap really sucks; but a porus fitting in a BIP system is a lot worse than in copper! I try to get my plumbing supplies from a professional supply house, hoping that the pro's would never put up with poor quality parts.

I have always thought that sweating copper, as long as you follow the correct procedure, is pretty easy. I use mapp gas (esp. for the bigger, thicker fittings) most of the time. I also like to use the curved flame deflector do-hicky on the end of the torch for more even heating.

Real good thread, even though I have all the tools to work BIP, I agree that, for a home shop, copper is the way to go. (Same is true of electrical wire, but that is a seperate subject). Does the mechanical code have rules on using copper for airline?

My "propane" torch is kept in an old sawzall case. Nice because you don't have to remove the gas tank from the torch, plus plenty of room for the misc. tools and supplies used in sweating copper. mark
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  #25  
Old 05-17-2009, 03:36 PM
kbs2244 kbs2244 is offline
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Default epoxy

I have never done a whole system with copper and epoxy.
Just quick and dirty add ons where the flame may have been a little less than a good idea.
I preped it like always.
Good and clean inside and outside.
I just used the side by side epoxy stuff that you squeeze out on a piece of paper and mix.
Put a good coat on the outside of the male piece, push it in, give it a 1/4 turn back and forth and wait 24 hours.
I think maybe twice in water systems and maybe 4 times in air.
The air systems never got above 140 PSI
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  #26  
Old 05-17-2009, 05:23 PM
shoprat
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Default Flameless copper pipe connection

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs2244 View Post
I have never done a whole system with copper and epoxy.
Just quick and dirty add ons where the flame may have been a little less than a good idea.
I preped it like always.
Good and clean inside and outside.
I just used the side by side epoxy stuff that you squeeze out on a piece of paper and mix.
Put a good coat on the outside of the male piece, push it in, give it a 1/4 turn back and forth and wait 24 hours.
I think maybe twice in water systems and maybe 4 times in air.
The air systems never got above 140 PSI
I often worry about burning down the house, when working on some copper piping. Most of my concern is in the old houses with walls stuffed full of newspaper for insulation. So,the glue may be an option. I saw an O-ring crimp style system, on this old house, but that is a pretty spendy tool. mark
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  #27  
Old 05-17-2009, 05:34 PM
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Mild Steel Mild Steel is offline
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This is a good thread!! The only thing I disagree with is angling the distribution line so water drains back to the compressor tank. I like to angle it to drain away from the compressor so the condensate is going with the air flow. Most home shops can be easily set up to do this. Complex industrial installations must have multiple drains through the system because it is impossible to run all the pipe to drain to one location.
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2009, 06:10 PM
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Lu47Dan Lu47Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbs2244 View Post
I have never done a whole system with copper and epoxy.
Just quick and dirty add ons where the flame may have been a little less than a good idea.
I preped it like always.
Good and clean inside and outside.
I just used the side by side epoxy stuff that you squeeze out on a piece of paper and mix.
Put a good coat on the outside of the male piece, push it in, give it a 1/4 turn back and forth and wait 24 hours.
I think maybe twice in water systems and maybe 4 times in air.
The air systems never got above 140 PSI
Okay . Most of the time when I have to add to an air system it is done with a torch as people don't want to wait to use it .
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoprat View Post
I often worry about burning down the house, when working on some copper piping. Most of my concern is in the old houses with walls stuffed full of newspaper for insulation. So,the glue may be an option.
Sweating fitting will be covered later in this thread , including tips and tricks for using a torch around flammable materials .
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoprat View Post
I saw an O-ring crimp style system, on this old house, but that is a pretty spendy tool. mark
Mark , Pro-Press systems are expensive . The crimping tool can run over $1000 dollars for a small one . The fittings are not cheap either , unless the time savings in man hours add up to over the extra cost of the fittings then they do not made sense to use . I have used Pro-Press tools and fittings on several jobs and they worked fine . It is a nice system but I would not say that it is living up to the time saving that it initially promised .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mild Steel View Post
This is a good thread!! The only thing I disagree with is angling the distribution line so water drains back to the compressor tank. I like to angle it to drain away from the compressor so the condensate is going with the air flow. Most home shops can be easily set up to do this. Complex industrial installations must have multiple drains through the system because it is impossible to run all the pipe to drain to one location.
Pitching the piping to a drain leg is better then running it back into the compressor tank , unless your tank is set up with an automatic drain , If you have an auto drain then it makes sense to let it remove the moisture from the system . When running the drops a central drip leg can be installed into the system with all the lines pitched to it , then the drain leg can be vented outside or into a floor drain . If the drain leg is vented to the outside of the building make sure it is in a safe location and pointed down to the ground so you do not injury someone that happens to be passing by .
If you think about how air acts under pressure , you will soon realize that when you are not using the air , it is setting in a static unmoving state in which water can and does flow to the lowest point in the system . If you really study how you utilize your air system , you will find that most of the time the system is static and the water can flow freely one way or the other . I can see why some advocate for the pitch to be back to the tank , if you drain your tank religiously then you get the condensate out of the whole system when you do , but if you are like me and drain my drip legs two to three times a month ( more if the system has done a lot of work ) then the drain leg system works well .
Dan
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2009, 07:38 PM
shoprat
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Default As long as there is pitch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mild Steel View Post
This is a good thread!! The only thing I disagree with is angling the distribution line so water drains back to the compressor tank. I like to angle it to drain away from the compressor so the condensate is going with the air flow. Most home shops can be easily set up to do this. Complex industrial installations must have multiple drains through the system because it is impossible to run all the pipe to drain to one location.
The only thing common about most air plumbing set-ups is that they have nothing in common. Since my friend is not the most "maintainance concious" guy in the world, I think he will maybe remember to drain the tank. But if there is 5+ gallons of water in it when he does, my suprise meter won't move. Two drain points is too much for him to do. Maybe, I should get him an auto drain for Xmass, at least with his present set-up, he only needs one.

Anyway, the idea is that a little planning can go a long way. mark
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2009, 08:49 PM
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randydupree randydupree is offline
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so,what kind of pressures will the copper withstand?
do you use a flex joint at the compressor?
and is it hard pipe,or roll copper?
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