Welding "Mangaloy"

[AussieTom]

Hi all,

Im wondering if anybody out there has experience with welding Manaloy, otherwise known as Hadfield steel? Ive got a wrecking yard electromagnet that needs to be repaired, and i have no knowledge on this material, and cant find consistent information with a simple google search.

[weldor2005]

From what I've read it is very close to Manganese steels in general, with a minor addition of chrome or vanadium as a stabilizer. I would then think that you could weld it with a Manganese intended welding rod. We use S-180 from a company in Michigan. Our application is repairing our shot blasting equipment which is mainly manganese steel plates overlapping like scales bolted to a carbon steel frame.

[milomilo]

Pretty thorough discussion over at AWS.

https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=10796

[AussieTom]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Pretty thorough discussion over at AWS.

https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=10796

I read that, along with lots of others and a few reaserch papers. I understand the Austentite phase transformation, my problem is trying to re-weld a deep groove butt in already work hardened material. Its a very restricted fabrication, and the low thermal transfer of the parent seems to be causing shrinkage cracking in the weld.

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[milomilo]

Originally Posted by AussieTom

I read that, along with lots of others and a few reaserch papers. I understand the Austentite phase transformation, my problem is trying to re-weld a deep groove butt in already work hardened material. Its a very restricted fabrication, and the low thermal transfer of the parent seems to be causing shrinkage cracking in the weld.

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When welding stuff like that I always use a needle gun to peen the crap out of each weld immediately after welding. It does reduce the cracking tendency.

[AussieTom]

Originally Posted by milomilo

When welding stuff like that I always use a needle gun to peen the crap out of each weld immediately after welding. It does reduce the cracking tendency.

I was thinking i might try that. Can be a pain in the ass as your runs have to be very short to catch it on the cool down.

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[OZWELDER]

Hi Tom,
25 years plus back I was involved with the stuff- once and once only . I seem to remember that it had practically the same specs as Bohler K700.

I have just looked up K700 and that was Carbon 1.25%,Silicon 0.40% and Manganese 13.00%. I think we did a CE carbon equivalent diagram and with that we might have done the Kilojoule value for welding input heat values.

It was water cooled meaning we built a bloody dam around it to pull out the heat with the welding area exposed to the air

Its all that long ago,I hope I have not mis -remembered anything.

1. Absolutely NO preheating and minimal heat input.
   
2. Using smallest gauge electrodes - for low heat input
   
3. Pretend you don't know and palm it off on some other poor sucker

The magnet reference intrigued me a bit as I had not heard of manganese steel used as a magnet, so I googled a bit and found this http://www.manganal.com/faq.html
Here another one with fully chemical make up http://www.fordsteel.com/PDF/Mangalloy_Plate.pdf

Same stuff different name as far as I can tell.
The sulfur to manganese ratio is important as well as too much sulphur content will make it damn near unweldeable. I can remember it was in the Lincoln procedure handbook but cannot remember the ratio and don't have the book at the moment. Maybe some kind soul who has a copy might look it up for you.

Do you have acess to a chemical content analysis. knowing the sulphur % may save you some grief.

[AussieTom]

Originally Posted by OZWELDER

Hi Tom,
25 years plus back I was involved with the stuff- once and once only . I seem to remember that it had practically the same specs as Bohler K700.

I have just looked up K700 and that was Carbon 1.25%,Silicon 0.40% and Manganese 13.00%. I think we did a CE carbon equivalent diagram and with that we might have done the Kilojoule value for welding input heat values.

It was water cooled meaning we built a bloody dam around it to pull out the heat with the welding area exposed to the air

Its all that long ago,I hope I have not mis -remembered anything.

1. Absolutely NO preheating and minimal heat input.
   
2. Using smallest gauge electrodes - for low heat input
   
3. Pretend you don't know and palm it off on some other poor sucker

The magnet reference intrigued me a bit as I had not heard of manganese steel used as a magnet, so I googled a bit and found this http://www.manganal.com/faq.html
Here another one with fully chemical make up http://www.fordsteel.com/PDF/Mangalloy_Plate.pdf

Same stuff different name as far as I can tell.
The sulfur to manganese ratio is important as well as too much sulphur content will make it damn near unweldeable. I can remember it was in the Lincoln procedure handbook but cannot remember the ratio and don't have the book at the moment. Maybe some kind soul who has a copy might look it up for you.

Do you have acess to a chemical content analysis. knowing the sulphur % may save you some grief.

Hi OZ, thanks for the input. I came to the same conclusion as you on the heat input and water cooling/ quenching. Unfortunately, im the poor sucker it got palmed off to! Supervisor got a PMI (Xray) done, which told us it was 10% manganese, but he told the tech he didn't need a full report, just the on the spot verbal! Ass hat, so no, short of getting the guy back i have no idea on the chemical content. Im going to assume it is a readily weldable alloy in its cast form, as it is a welded fabrication that was arc gouged out so the coil of the magnet could be replaced.
I have done a few test welds with 2.5mm 316L stick, trying to maintain the austentite, but im wondering if dilution with the parent is picking up alot of carbon, and because of the rapid quench, creating bainite or a brittle chromium-carbide which is causing the cracking. Ive sent off to our suppliers to source some of the E-FeMn consumables recommended at the first site you listed, although from a bit more research they seem to be more of a 'hardfacing' or 'surfacing' type of consumable. Im grasping at straws here, but it seems like a high %Mn with nickle or some other alloy consumable will be the only way to hold the carbon in austentite as it cools through the Lower Critical Temp. A phase diagram would be handy!
The original welds looked like a stainless, grey/silver and no rusting.
My next attempt will be to try a TIG buttering layer with a 300 series SS and then try joining over that.
I cancelled my membership with WTIA a few years ago, otherwise id be seeing if they had any advice, although they can be a funny lot to deal with.
Or ill see if anyone needs a boat mooring!

[USMCPOP]

My 1950's Lincoln handbook recommends 18-8 stainless when joining/repairing the 12% - 14% Mn steel This is for strength and to avoid cracking, not wear resistance.

Seems like their order of preference:

1. 18-8 stainless
2. Moly-copper-Mn
3. Nickel-Mn
4. 14% Mn

They do recommend low current, short welds, skipping around, cooling adjacent areas with water. They also recommend peening, due to the high thermal expansion on high Mn steel.

I used to live near High Bridge, NJ where Hadfield steel was first produced in the U.S. in 1892. There was a high steel railroad bridge or trestle in town that had to be back filled underneath because it was rickety. The defunct Exact Level & Tool Mfg Co Inc was also located in High Bridge.

[AussieTom]

Originally Posted by USMCPOP

My 1950's Lincoln handbook recommends 18-8 stainless when joining/repairing the 12% - 14% Mn steel This is for strength and to avoid cracking, not wear resistance.

Seems like their order of preference:

1. 18-8 stainless
2. Moly-copper-Mn
3. Nickel-Mn
4. 14% Mn

They do recommend low current, short welds, skipping around, cooling adjacent areas with water. They also recommend peening, due to the high thermal expansion on high Mn steel.


I used to live near High Bridge, NJ where Hadfield steel was first produced in the U.S. in 1892. There was a high steel railroad bridge or trestle in town that had to be back filled underneath because it was rickety. The defunct Exact Level & Tool Mfg Co Inc was also located in High Bridge.

Thanks for that. 18-8 is not a designation we use in Australia, or not that i have seen, but from a quick google it would appear that 304 is going to be close. Sounds like i wasn't far off the mark with what i was trying.

Thankyou for all your input, ill let you know how it goes!