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  #11  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:27 AM
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Try a stitch welder. They are an attachment to a stick machine and run the stick in and out, depositing metal without building up as much heat. I had the chance to use one and they do work. I think Eastwood still sells them.

Or you could try epoxy and rivets....
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2009, 11:15 AM
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1/16 7024 will work.Basically a sheet metal rod from the before mig days.
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBFab View Post
+1 FOR 1/16 OR 3/32 6013 I don't doubt it would work with 6011 but 6013 is meant for sheet metal. The only advantage I can see to 6011 is the fast freezing property, but in my mind the deep penetration negates that.

Education time.

The 6011 is a deep penetrator, yes...in DCEP. That puts more heat into the work and thus more penetration. When you are running sheet, you don't have a lot of room to penetrate, obviously. Enter DCEN. Running a positive ground will put more heat into the rod and it is readily apparent if you stick one and can't get it unstuck quickly. So, you get LESS penetration with DCEN...which is ideal for thinner sheet. With a practiced whip, one can move quickly and reduce blowout danger.

Here is my issue with 6013's. They take too much heat to run properly for thin material. Lincoln has the operating range for 3/32 6013's as 70-95A DC while a 3/32 6011 is 40-75A DC. That is a much much more friendly range for sheet than the 6013's. Plus, if you lrun long leads, 6013's really won't run well at the lower range..so you have to turn them up again. Excessive heat isn't conducive to sheet metal welding..unless you like warpage and blowouts. The specs I was constantly working under included a ZERO blowout clause. It had to penetrate and not go through. The 6013 was not consistent in this since it had to run higher. The 6011 was the consistent producer.

Why do I keep listing 3/32? Easy. Most specs I've worked under won't allow anything under 3/32. Plus, the smaller the rod, the more costly in rods and production. The 3/32 will run cheaper and produce three times more than a 1/16 rod. So, if your rods cost 2x or so and only run 1/3 as the 3/32 rod, its a no brainer as to which will produce better. Plus, with the heavier rod, you won't be running it hot. You can use the heat to melt the rod more so than the work. This is why a 1/8 6011 will sometimes run 18ga better than a 3/32 if you run them in the 65-70a DCEN range.

I am not pulling these numbers out of the air either. I welded day in and day out with these numbers for just short of 10 years running nothing but galvanized sheet metal. Everything from 14-20 ga...all with 6011's and 6010's. I can prove it too if need be.
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2009, 04:23 PM
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I've welded what seems to be miles of 18 thru 14 ga black iron sheet metal stacks on boilers, either roller or square and all we ever used was 6011 dcen, at about 45-60 amps. Burn thru wasn't a problem for us, the main concern was that it stay together, with expansion and contraction from the the boiler run cycles, it had to be solid and it had to be fast, and usually way out of position. The rod we used to run was 3/32" Airco E6011C, listed as EasyArc now marketed by Murex, and sold by Lincoln as part of their consumable line.


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  #15  
Old 11-11-2009, 05:24 PM
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Just another comment, regarding Don's post. The smaller the rod, the more precise you need to keep your arc length. Not only is the distance of the rod to work less, but the percentage of deviation (+ or -) decreases also. I, personally, have never been able to run 1/16 anything successfully, even with 3/32 I need to work at it, but I am very comfortable running 1/8, DCEN, 6011 or 6010, whatever the thickness.
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  #16  
Old 11-11-2009, 06:54 PM
JBFab JBFab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDA52 View Post
Education time.

The 6011 is a deep penetrator, yes...in DCEP. That puts more heat into the work and thus more penetration. When you are running sheet, you don't have a lot of room to penetrate, obviously. Enter DCEN. Running a positive ground will put more heat into the rod and it is readily apparent if you stick one and can't get it unstuck quickly. So, you get LESS penetration with DCEN...which is ideal for thinner sheet. With a practiced whip, one can move quickly and reduce blowout danger.

Here is my issue with 6013's. They take too much heat to run properly for thin material. Lincoln has the operating range for 3/32 6013's as 70-95A DC while a 3/32 6011 is 40-75A DC. That is a much much more friendly range for sheet than the 6013's. Plus, if you lrun long leads, 6013's really won't run well at the lower range..so you have to turn them up again. Excessive heat isn't conducive to sheet metal welding..unless you like warpage and blowouts. The specs I was constantly working under included a ZERO blowout clause. It had to penetrate and not go through. The 6013 was not consistent in this since it had to run higher. The 6011 was the consistent producer.

Why do I keep listing 3/32? Easy. Most specs I've worked under won't allow anything under 3/32. Plus, the smaller the rod, the more costly in rods and production. The 3/32 will run cheaper and produce three times more than a 1/16 rod. So, if your rods cost 2x or so and only run 1/3 as the 3/32 rod, its a no brainer as to which will produce better. Plus, with the heavier rod, you won't be running it hot. You can use the heat to melt the rod more so than the work. This is why a 1/8 6011 will sometimes run 18ga better than a 3/32 if you run them in the 65-70a DCEN range.

I am not pulling these numbers out of the air either. I welded day in and day out with these numbers for just short of 10 years running nothing but galvanized sheet metal. Everything from 14-20 ga...all with 6011's and 6010's. I can prove it too if need be.
whoa! easy there big shooter, I wasn't doubting you, just posting what works well for me. I don't doubt your method, and there is no need to "prove" anything. As a matter of fact I thank you for the tip. I have never tried running 6011 in DCEN, I will definitely be giving it a try next time the need arises (or next time I'm messin around in the shop).

I will stick by my suggestion for 6013, only because that's what I know, and that's what works for me. Thanks again for the tip DDA52.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2009, 08:07 PM
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JB, I wasn't ragging on ya...I was just quoting your post because it is what I always hear about sheet metal welding. I wasn't taking aim at ya..sorry. I was just in a hurry. The proving was if anyone wanted to see it, too. Should have worded that better too.

Of course, I've been told on Hobart and WW that it can't be done, too. I schooled several on both forums on the how to do it..hands on in my shop and in another shop... and they can now run it. It isn't tough, you just have to move. Arc control is critical as Joe said. You are keeping a very short arc and whipping will complicate keeping the short arc. Its doable though.


jack, 6011C's are the best there is, IMO. I still am working on a big box from a long time ago....they still work great, too.
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDA52 View Post
jack, 6011C's are the best there is, IMO. I still am working on a big box from a long time ago....they still work great, too.
Don,

I started using E6011C, when working for the boiler mfgr, you had to certify with the E6011C to weld the tubes to the tube sheet. The 6011 is used because you have to use the same rod all of the time, and with 6011, regardless of the welder available (either AC or DC), you could follow the procedure to the letter. Because of that procedure we were unable to test with 7018 or 6010, because of that welder clause. It got to the point, where we started to using the E6011C for almost everything. A great rod.


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  #19  
Old 11-11-2009, 09:48 PM
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I've only got AC to play with but I've had more luck with 6011 than 6013 for sheet too. I did best running vertical down, but I think that was mainly because it made me run faster and I generally use more of a weave for this position. Would need alot of practice to get good at it running flat
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  #20  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:05 PM
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One more for 1/16 6011 on DCEN. 2 months ago I had to weld 5-6 ft. of sheetmetal on my buddy's bulk feed bin that had been blown over before he bought the place. Metal all less than 14 gauge, and the 6011 worked far better for me than the 3/32 6013 I brought along also. Maybe it was my unfamiliarity with 6013, b/c I don't and never have really used it, but I couldn't get a good bead with it w/o blowing holes in the bin.
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