Oxy/Fuel bottles - Buying, renting, exchanging, etc.

[Mike00]

Thank you all for chiming in with your experiences.
I guess it varies a lot by distributor.

"First do you know there is a maximum withdraw rate (flow) for acetylene bottles"
I have read about that, as I understand it, the general rule is not to flow at a rate higher than would empty the bottle in 7 hours. Is that right? and would that allow for short use at higher flow or is that a hard limit that must not be exceeded even for a short time?

As far as lease tanks, I read that there is some ID stamped on top near the collar with the lessor's name or number or something. Could someone with leased tanks confirm this? I'd hate to buy an empty core, trying to save money, then be stuch with a useless tank.

"if you lay an acet. cylinder down for transport, you MUST wait at least 12 hours or preferably 24 after you put it upright before you open the valve and/or attach your gauges!"
I did not know that. I'm very glad to have learned this, the easy way.

"buy any size above the MC, as far as i know, there is no issue buying one off CL and taking it in to swap or get filled they are not as regulated as O2 bottles"
That leads me to a new line of questioning, oxygen bottles.

"I replaced your photo with an attachment of the same.
We do not use embedded images or off-site hosting."
Sorry, I should have read the rules.

"Please indicate what you want to do with your torch set, and then we all can
give advice from that point forward."
First thing I need to do is get familliar with it. Then I'll probably try to work up to brazing soup cans. I've only ever used an oxy torch to loosen seized/rusted metal. If I build up enough skill, I have a few old vehicles I'd like to try my hand at body work on.
As far as bottle sizes go though, even if I'd never need to flow more than a 35cf tank can flow, and the supplier was right next door, I'd still want to look at price because I doubt that a 105cf tank costs 3 times to fill as a 35cf.

"Rules on bottles change from state to state and supplier to supplier."
I'll have to look into Illinois. I don't think I'll be pushing anywhere near the limits on capacity unless Illinois is extremely restrictive.

"getting the hydro'd every 10 years"
I understand there is a date that should be readable on top of the cylinder. Is this date the date of the test or the date the certification expires? Also if I bring a tank as a core, that is out of certification will they take it anyway and test it? charge me a fee? will they take one that was last tested 20-30 years ago?

I ask this because those kind of tanks that have been sitting around, not being used for that long, are the ones people finally end up dumping on craigslist.

Thanks for all the help so far.
I might have about a million more questions once I get this thing up and going.

[MetalWolf]

Originally Posted by Mike00

."buy any size above the MC, as far as i know, there is no issue buying one off CL and taking it in to swap or get filled they are not as regulated as O2 bottles"
That leads me to a new line of questioning, oxygen bottles.

That is a totally different monster owner vs' lease...
and size does come in to play! but is far better to own your own bottles... and to know what you are looking at. when buying used bottles.

[greywynd]

Best place to start is to go see your local welding supply. (LWS).

Ask what can be leased, what can be bought, and what sort of bottles they will (or won’t) accept if you buy privately. After all, these are the folks that you’ll be dealing with to buy the gases anyway.

If you have more than one in your area, check them all out.

I was fortunate at the last one I dealt with, I have several smaller owned tanks, and when I needed a larger tank now and again, they’d let me take it just for the gas price, and return it when it was empty or the job was done. They would go out of their way to help me out if or when needed. However I had also helped them out, had bought several big dollar items from them, sent them some customers, and also watched the inventory at the job I was working at the time.




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[BukitCase]

The 1/7 volume per hour recommendation has recently changed to 1/10 (less flow, IOW)

https://www.thefabricator.com/articl...fety-knowledge

That's the ONLY place I've found that, but with something as explosive as acetylene why take chances...

Rosebud - look at your chart; I have one of Victor's SMALLEST rosebuds, and the size 5 (LARGEST) acetylene tanks - that tank is BARELY big enough to safely run the small rosebud. Bigger shops, if done right, will MANIFOLD multiple tanks if using bigger heating tips.

Reason for the "stand up and wait" thing - acetylene bottles have a porous filling that helps keep the acetone from being pulled into the hoses - acetone will rot the hose, then you get leaks/fires/death, etc - the "wait" time lets the acetone settle so it doesn't get pulled out the hose.

The Acetone is in the bottle (in controlled amount) to keep the acetylene STABLE (not exploding) - WITHOUT acetone, the whole bottle would explode at a little over15 psi (don't recall just how MUCH over 15) - bottles are typically filled to around 250 psi, ONLY because the acetone stabilizes it. If you've never seen an acetylene explosion, you should NOT "try this at home" -

There's more at that link; do NOT believe the old saying, "what you don't know can't hurt you", there's an AWFUL lotta DEAD people that'd disagree... Steve

[Mike00]

Well I just got off the phone with the guy from airgas. He was surprisingly helpful. He told me that tanks can or can't be serviced by them, depending on the stamp that indicates the manufacturer, and the companies associated with them. He told me the list was too long to explain, but that if I were looking at a tank, to call him with the information, and he would tell me if it is one they could service or not. $25 fee if it needs tested. B tanks sold $133 full, $60 for an exchange (tank value $73 in test, $48 if not) I also asked about a #4 cylinder, He told me $110-$160 for an exchange, but I'd have trouble finding one they could fill, and they will not sell me one.
He also told me, after I pressed on and on, that anything over 80 cu. ft., so anything bigger than a #3, they consider "lease only" however it's possible to exchange them, but they are subject to the manufacturer's list that basically, they won't touch most privately owned, but If you buy them new, and they're the right steel (MFG marks) you can exchange them like any other.
He finally told me 80 cu. ft. and less (#3 and smaller act, or 6.5" X 30" oxy) are by default considered "customer owned" and the manufacturer stamp is not checked.

[mccutter]

Here is a nice, quick 2 minute video that explains a lot: VIDEO (courtesy of FirePower)

[MetalWolf]

Originally Posted by Mike00

I just got off the phone with the guy from airgas. He was surprisingly helpful. He told me that tanks can or can't be serviced by them, depending on the stamp that indicates the manufacturer, and the companies associated with them. He told me the list was too long to explain, .

Sorry, But that, Is A load of BS! he just wants to sell you a bottle...
It would only apply, To lease bottles period!
certain size bottles can be bought outright. some larger O2 bottles can only be leased due to imposed laws and regulations... say some states size 300's and up some stated 200's and up...

But, there is large owner size 200's-300's out there still I own a few!
Almost anything in the size's of 150s and down can be bought outright...
anything above that is usually always leased bottles...

But, when buying, used O2 bottles... for the correct term "Gas Cylinders"
of larger 200-300s in sizes, if the cylinder has an embossed collar it is always a leased bottle do not buy it!

Now if the large 200-300s have a slick collar, "That is an owner bottle" far and few between nowadays but they are still out there and a guy can pick up one on a good deal providing he knows what to look for...

So now, we come to this... Let say you take a lease bottle/gas cylinder in.
and it needs hydro testing... but is not their cylinder. ok, so its other companies cylinder... they will still send it in to get it hydro tested but will by law confiscate it if you do not have proof of ownership or a said up to date written lease. and only pertains to, large cylinders not the general home shop 150s and down...

[Camaro Zach]

I have no advice other than Be careful dealing with airgas.

I purchased all of my cylinders outright from my lws over a decade ago. A few years ago airgas bought out the lws and has since given me a few rental bottles because there were no “owner” bottles to swap me.(in a bind, need gas now) Now they say they never have any owner bottles to give me so I’m stuck with rental bottles.

[toprecycler]

Lots of good advice given, but bottom line it really depends on your LWS, and the guy behind the counter. I have done business with my local LWS for almost 40 years. 30 years ago was a total different business to work with. It really helped if you were in the business buying items and making friends with the employees. That goes a long way. My local LWS has basically one guy running it. A lot of other guys I talk to hate him, because he goes by the book, at least to them. But, he is just there doing his job like corporate wants him too. (Airgas is the supplier). Airgas has basically bought out all the other local LWS shops within 45 miles, so I am limited to get stuff.

Whenever I go in, I try not to get to mad at him, and I usually do not have a problem with exchanging tanks. Technically I have a lifetime lease on a set of smaller acetylene, and a 125 oxygen, but due to my dads scrapping and auctions in the past, I have about 10 more tanks that “I own”, just could not produce a receipt if I had to.

I can usually just swap out any tank, and he does not bat an eye. But, my boss at work has a different story to tell, and he would rather die vs step back into an Airgas store.

In today’s age, we are really quick to price check and buy from the internet , whoever has the cheapest price that day, but in the long run, this is really hurting the local stores, that do not do the volume, so they have to mark up the prices more in order to survive on the reduced sales that they do have, so it is a catch 22. I know that every thing I buy on online, is a sale lost locally, so am I helping the local store go out of business? Probably, and then I will regret it, because then for things like tank gas I will have to drive a couple towns away to get. Very inconvenient, but likely in the future.

Losing that friendly banter with local guys will have its cost someday.

Went a bit OT here, but something to think about.

Also, if you have another supplier available beside Airgas, they probably will be more friendly to work with. I think Airgas is the largest supplier in the world now, but that does not mean they are the most competitive. It just means that they have more rules for all the individual stores to follow, and bigger overhead costs in terms of buildings, vehicles, equipment, people( management and lawyers, that might not really provide any actual value to the product that they sell, just an added cost), so they charge a lot more for the same item that the smaller mom and pop store will sell it for, so bigger is not necessarily better.


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[MetalWolf]

Originally Posted by Camaro Zach

I have no advice other than Be careful dealing with airgas.

I purchased all of my cylinders outright from my lws over a decade ago. A few years ago airgas bought out the lws and has since given me a few rental bottles because there were no “owner” bottles to swap me.(in a bind, need gas now) Now they say they never have any owner bottles to give me so I’m stuck with rental bottles.

Zach, That will only matter if the cylinders are of commercial size. others "cylinders" by size don't really matter, what they swap you out with...

let's say you bought a bottle/cylinders set from northern tools standard 150s you get them filled at Airgas... cool no problem.

So you take them back to fill again and they just simply swap them out... Now, you have Airgas bottles. Now you need another fill, and you decide their price is too high "to fill" and you go over to AOC... they will just simply swap them out again with one of theirs... No worries.

And when a place like Airgas and AOC start to have a few too many of the "others" cylinders they just swap them back out with each other their selves.

It only really matters, when the cylinders that are strict, leased cylinders...

Hope this help...