Plasma Cutter & Plasma/AC-DC TIG/Stick (Inverter Design = Magic!)

[DivTec]

Originally Posted by cutter

Nah, but if he doesn't morph into a mawmaw I might try to help him correct the most glaring grammatical errors in his ad copy.

Hey, don't make fun of me.
So... I'm not a good smeller.

I thought it made sense for people to correct it as they read it.
My idea seems to work... because that's what you doing.

Damn... I forgot the smiley icon. :-]

[DivTec]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarrior

This is partly why America is going down the tubes, we're giving our money to the Chinese.

I have a Lincoln 210 MP. It does stick, TIG, MIG and FC. Is that not a multi-process machine?

I agree that America is going down the tubes. Does that mean I'm not supposed to offer machines that really perform, at a great price so more people can afford them. C'mon.


Aaah... by the way.. that Lincoln 210 MP you mentioned as being US made... aaah it very well could have been made in China.
Possible/probable Chinese design and certainly Chinese accessories as they are the same as what we import. We can compare photos if you like.

So... my previous statement of US mfg's do not make multi-function machines... may have been correct after-all.

Hey, I am not gloating over that probability.
Truth and facts don't care about emotions... they can only be what they are.

Hey Miller does it too. I have a Community college book on welding... and I found the exact same foot pedal that we import from China with a Miller label on it in one of the photos. That was years ago.

[DivTec]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarrior

This is partly why America is going down the tubes, we're giving our money to the Chinese.




I have a Lincoln 210 MP. It does stick, TIG, MIG and FC. Is that not a multi-process machine?

Oooops! I just noticed an error in one of my previous statements that could be misconstrued. Let me clarify.

The statement... unfortunately no combo machines are made by US mfg's. WTF! I'm the closest you got, ....

That WTF! belonged to the sentence that contain "made by US mfg.s WTF! and NOT the way your quoted it. as in... WTF! I'm the closest you go, ...

I can see how it was misconstrued. My bad... I wasn't be arrogant. Really.

I meant like Damn WTF! Why couldn't our US manufactures have made these muti-function machine instead of China.
Sorry for that error.

I can see it both ways. From a business standpoint I can say I'm glad China offered them at a price point that allows me to offer them at a great price... which make me $... ya'know capitalism. Also the customers benefit too... thousands are now using machine's that didn't exist and are affordable... allowing them to win as well. Again... capitalism!
That is what made America great! Until the government/establishment whatever you want to call it, took advantage of the trust we placed in them and began screwing us for decades, I witnessed it.
Hopefully, that will change so America can be great again.
If ever China is out of the picture, I will be designing and building these machines here in the USA.
No way to compete now.

[SmokinDodge]

Originally Posted by Shade Tree Welder

DivTec supply us a demo machine in late May when a bunch
of us are getting together and we will review it for you.

He won't make one available Ron. He knows it won't stack up to our current equipment.

I'll stick with my multi purpose SA 200.

[midmosandblasting]

Question if I have trouble will the parts ans service be available timely.I do qualify as hobby but serious when on it?

[GWIZ]

Originally Posted by DivTec

Yes... they do "still" parallel the transistors... which is really just fine.
Do you know why? Hmm.
Ok... I'll tell you. One reason, is because when they parallel, the combined On resistance is reduced. Check out ohm's law. We want the lowest On resistance possible... which mean lower heat (waste) and more power to the tip... yeah! And another positive side-effect is smaller heat-sink... which mean lower machine weight, small machine size... shall I go on... well maybe not because other reasons are not coming to mind... although I may think of some later. Oh heah, cost.

That is the up side.
now tell us the down side about the chain reaction when one fails?
Then matching transistors so one does not do more work than the others.

===
Not being specific to any welder.
I don't recall if your welder was on the market when I did my research unless Precise-weld is a re-bagged machine.

Years back I considered selling multipurpose Chinese welders and repairing them, being that I can trouble shoot to the component level.
the failures were burned up circuit boards.
Further research the common problem was the power boards that paralleled the transistors, when they went out they burned holes through the circuit boards making them un-repairable.

I wasn't going to take chances.

I have not kept up to date, but it looks like some of the single purpose machines that just use the 4 transistors are holding up.
===
From this link
http://173.255.200.154/index.php?topic=44990.225

"So i am dead in the water till i can get the welder running. The problem is that it is a knock off brand and i can find any info on it anywhere. it is a Precise-weld TIG200ACDCS anybody have any experience with those? My friend is currently looking at it and said the whole power control board is fried. not sure what i will be doing, i have to wait and see what my options are."

Gee I wonder if that is the board with the paralleled transistors?
.
.

[GWIZ]

Originally Posted by DivTec

Oh yeah! Well, I've got a Miller repair job that I couldn't fix because the micro-controller board went up in flames. Want photos so you know I'm not lying?

Micro-controllers are fine except it makes it impossible to repair due to the functionality being in software and not a common hardware component that can be troubleshot and replaced.

I'll bet the Chinese machines win the contest of which has had more fires.
I tell everyone not to by anything with a computer.


Millers are great machine no doubt! I'm just saying people must realize all these machines are "high-tech" and can fail.

No not ALL Millers are "high-tech"!

<snip>
If you want ultimate reliability... buy a toaster... but don't expect it to weld worth a crap.

My first welder was as close to a toaster/heater as one gets, I think it was recalled for killing people.

BTW... I'm just sayin... expect $800 to over $1000 if your Miller dies... because they do not troubleshoot to the component level... the just only offer board replacement. At least that is complaints from many customer that had Miller or Hobart. Again, I'm just sayin.

Better for the company, worse for the customer.

Just saying $800 + would be the high end Millers.


After our warranty of 1 year labor, 3 years electronic parts... we repair at $69 / hour with a 4 to 5 hour maximum depending upon the machine.

Here today gone tomorrow.

But, sense we know the electronics theory of operation of all our machines we can more times than not provide problem solution by phone.

I just wanted too place that in bold

Try to find fault with that... by golly.

By golly.

[GWIZ]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarrior

The biggest issue with Chinese made stuff is durability. Typically the higher the technology involved, the crappier it is. Will it even turn on in a week, a month, a year? The second biggest issue is warranty, or at least getting anything fixed or replaced under warranty. Third is having a local facility to take the thing to in order to get warranty work, or parts without having to spend a fortune in shipping it back and waiting weeks or months for the repair or replacement, or getting parts and accessories.

I did not see much technology in the Chinese welders, some what basic.
The use of the coined word "technology" is just to make you think you are getting something advanced, its now just a feel good word to take your money...

I think the Chinese are arrogant, once they get off their high horse the US will be in trouble.
Start with their manuals anyone with half a brain would have someone that knows English rewrite them properly.

seems they do not believe their machines can fail and it must be the operators fault.

What I have seen in some of the machines scares me.. being if the Chinese sink another $100 or less in the welders, the reliability will go through the roof, that will pretty much sink Miller and Lincoln.

Not being specific to the posted welder in post 1.
as to internal parts the issue is not as much as the quality of parts but the mounting and placement of internal components and connections.
in some of the TIG welders their arc gap points were crap.

[WeekendWarrior]

Originally Posted by DivTec

I do like your post of "frustration"? I think?
Anyway... I am not bragging when I say what I know.

Not saying you don't know about electronics. Hell, I took three years of it and what knowledge I retained allows me to build small circuits for various things.

Originally Posted by DivTec

To answer your questions and comments...
1) Because they are inexpensive enough and of exceptional design that I can use my talents to offer a Great machine, at a Great price for those that don't resist logical changes after I thoroughly prepare them... because you are correct... the build quality is unreliable. Design is great, part quality is the same as what Miller or the other use... since virtually all electronic parts come from the orient.

Orient does not mean China. Japan probably makes the best electronic components from what I've seen. The only way you're going to get "good" quality out of a chinese factory is do like Jet does for their equipment in Taiwan, spec the entire piece from ground up, contract them to make it and have quality reps at the factory.

Still, the best solution would be to have them made here so you can employ Americans. I understand they'd cost more, but for equipment like that a lot of people are willing to shell out for quality and American made and you'd be helping to build our economy.

Originally Posted by DivTec

BTW... I'd be seriously willing to compare performance of your machine to mine. I think that would be very interesting to members of this site. Are you up for that? I'm talking serious friendly competition no matter how politically incorrect it may be. Although I may be operating under a handicap since I do not claim to be a welder. I would expect you to assist me in proper technique as you see fit... to make the competition fair. Agree?

I'm not a welder either, you probably have more experience welding than I do. I have no doubt your machine will weld, hell even the Harbor Freight cheapo boxes will weld, but there's more to it than that. Like I said, if something fails on the machine, or I need a spare part or parts (like feed rollers, or tips, or whatever, I can go to my local welding supply place and pick it up in 15 minutes. If it needs warranty work I can drop it off in 15 minutes with no shipping a 40lb machine to God knows where. Lastly there is the reliability issue. Most of the Chinese machines don't have a good track record in that regard.

Originally Posted by DivTec

BTW... how much did that multi-function machine cost. Because it looks you made eat my words when I stated incorrectly that US mfg's do not make combination machine. My bad! I should have said "as far as I know" or something like that. Sorry. You right I'm wrong.

$999

Originally Posted by DivTec

2) I do not know about the GoFundMe... and those kinds of sites. However, I know of them... and that is not a bad suggestion. If I could find someone to do it... since I can't do everything... I would strongly consider it. and that brings me to your next comment.

3) Yes... you are not far off when you suggest a machine with Plasma, AC-DC TIG, AC-DC Stick. Well that is the PT50/200ACDC I've posting about, less the MIG functionality. Did you watch the video and check it out at http://parkermetalworking.com/parkermp120416_005.htm?

Yes, I watched them. Your machine does what every other 200 amp welder and 50 amp plasma cutter does. The only thing on your machine is the AC/DC as most multi machines are DC only or don't also have a plasma cutter. That's why I suggested you also add wirefeed for MIG and FC. I think you'll find the majority of home welders and fabricators mostly use MIG, FC or stick. Custom shops would have good use for TIG too, especially AC/DC.

Originally Posted by DivTec

The only function that is missing is the MIG... which is doable (I've got the circuitry running on simulator). I'm not sure what you mean, FC (frequency control?).

Flux Core (gasless wirefeed).

Originally Posted by DivTec

If so... my PT50/200ACDC has that feature for AC TIG.
Is 60% duty-cycle at 100% power, and 100% continuous operation at 3/4 power good enough? Actually it's more like continuous operation as we've never had a report of it cycling on over-temp from any customers. Inverter machines DO NOT suffer from the duty-cycle over-heat issue like transformer based machines do.

No, I understand inverters and transformers, but even inverters get hot, otherwise you wouldn't have a 60% cycle at 100% power. There is no such thing as 100% efficiency.

Originally Posted by DivTec

(I can explain why if you want). It all comes down to power in, to power out, efficiency.

See above.

Originally Posted by DivTec

Our Inverter machines are typically 85-87% efficient... hence virtually no duty-cycle parameter applies. Fact not fiction!

85-87% efficiency is not 100% efficiency, so where do that 13-15% loss go? Heat.

Originally Posted by DivTec

Additionally... due to the inherent efficiency, the current is low. How low you ask... well, let me tell you. Our 50AMP PLASMA, 200 AMP AC-DC TIG, STICK draws a maximum of ~24 amps.

My 210 MP is rated at 14.7amp draw at 100% output (220amps) on 230v.

Originally Posted by DivTec

(I can do the power math for you if you are want). Yep... that means you can run this machine on 12 gauge power cable, over 100 ft. due to the low current draw. Obviously, that coupled with the low weight of ~40lbs equals extreme portability. Hey it runs on a close dryer circuit with enough left over (just barely) for the compressor (2.5 hp >).

Voltage drop for any given wire gauge depends on several things, is it solid or stranded, copper or aluminum, single or three phase power, the load, and it varies with temp too.

I'm well aware of Ohm's law and the math to calculate this, but like anything involving wiring, it's never a good idea to go with the minimum.

Originally Posted by DivTec

So as much as you hate the facts... really, think about that... they are facts.
It's not my fault that US manufactures did not produced a combination machine like the Chinese make.
They should have, they could have, but they didn't.
You tell me why, because I do not know. Just file it under the category... America's disintegration.

The fact is, Chinese made stuff is inferior. I won't buy one. That's the facts. Chinese are not the only ones making multi-process machines. NO ONE makes a "true" multi-process that does it all, every one is a certain combination of things, always missing something else.

Originally Posted by DivTec

So back to the challenge, you up for it? I am!
These days we have great photo and video ability on our cell phones.
So it's a can do, if we want too.

What challenge is it that you want? That our machines can weld? The max capacity? My machine doesn't have a plasma cutter, so there is nothing to compare there, but I don't have to have a plasma cutter, I have saws and cut-off wheels. Then again I can MIG and FC with mine and yours can't. Yours can AC TIG, but I can use a spool gun and MIG aluminum. You have two ideas going for your machine: It has a plasma cutter and AC capability. I'm telling you, if you want the "ultimate" in multi-process, add the wirefeed/MIG/FC capability and you'd have a "fabrication shop in a box". Every multi-process machine on the market right now is always a combination of a few capabilities, but missing others and in my opinion the missing capabilities are the ones that make the most sense. Your machine, for example, has a plasma cutter, I agree, super handy to have, but it doesn't MIG or FC, which is arguably the most widely used welding method today. Yours has AC/DC TIG, but mine at least does DC TIG. I'd be willing to bet that there is more use or need for MIG than AC TIG of aluminum, except in fabrication shops doing that sort of work.

Originally Posted by DivTec

I addition it would provide interest with regard to welding, cutting and even more interest in this ShopFloorTalk site.

Agreed?

Hey anyone out there think it would be a great entertaining competition?

[WeekendWarrior]

Originally Posted by DivTec

I agree that America is going down the tubes. Does that mean I'm not supposed to offer machines that really perform, at a great price so more people can afford them. C'mon.

No, it means you should stop helping the demise by importing more Chinese made stuff. Someone who has the money and looking to spend $1200+ for a welder will have the money and be willing to spend more for good quality and American made.

Originally Posted by DivTec

Aaah... by the way.. that Lincoln 210 MP you mentioned as being US made... aaah it very well could have been made in China.
Possible/probable Chinese design and certainly Chinese accessories as they are the same as what we import. We can compare photos if you like.

Just because accessories or parts look the same doesn't mean they come from the same place. China is known for copying stuff.

Originally Posted by DivTec

So... my previous statement of US mfg's do not make multi-function machines... may have been correct after-all.

I'm not so sure.

Originally Posted by DivTec

Hey, I am not gloating over that probability.
Truth and facts don't care about emotions... they can only be what they are.

Hey Miller does it too. I have a Community college book on welding... and I found the exact same foot pedal that we import from China with a Miller label on it in one of the photos. That was years ago.

But you base your assumption only on a picture. I can go to Harbor Freight and find tools that look just like well known brands, they look the same in shape and size, but the two were definitely made in different places.