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  #111  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:19 PM
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Scotts Scotts is offline
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See my attachment please. Would you post this page of your schematics with all of the page on 1 picture please. I would like to see where everything not showing to the top and right side is going please.

No big hurry.

Consider a relay very similar to a starter solenoid on a car. On a car starter solenoid it is a Normally Open contact. It has a coil that works the same as an electromagnet, because it is one. When you turn the key you complete the circuit momentarily This energizes the coil which pulls the solenoid in to make contact for the high current of starter motor.

The relays have a coil rated for your control voltage, 12 volts in this case. When the relay is not energized it has a set of contacts that are closed and when the coil is energized the common connection moves over to the normally open set of contacts and completes the circuit there, while the coil is energized the normally closed set of contacts is open or does not complete the circuit.

I am just typing away here in a previous post you mentioned you are not into electronics and relays and such so I am just trying to help some.

I really think there is an issue in the circuit that has something to do with the machine thinking it is not level enough to safely go up. This complete circuit appears to be on the page I have attached.

Scott
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  #112  
Old 06-25-2020, 06:57 PM
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here you go.. I posted it twice.. Once with flash, once without..
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  #113  
Old 06-25-2020, 07:24 PM
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GWIZ GWIZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post

The same deal with 12.5V at the wire at the hydraulic solenoid when activated then drops off to nothing within a few seconds.
<> what SOL is that ????



RISER: With ground switch on, and Riser selected. Relay 31 activates and LED comes on, LED 22 relay K22 and LED 23 and K23. Power at 12.5v on PCB wire out. 20, 22, 50, 74, 76, and 79.
RISER
A quick look at the drawing LED's for the RISER, looks ok.

LED31 ON/light indicates voltage at pcb20-screw..... ((this step)find out if the voltage is getting to sol19)


We need to check the voltage "at" AT solenoid 19
** If you can, post a picture of SOL19**

And its resistance
Screw term 20 should have wire #140


all power off when checking ohms/resistance!
GUESSING about 1000 to 300 ohms from pcb20 to metal ground
that should be SOL19 coils resistance.

being there is the LED and a diode in circuit, you may have to swap the meter leads to get a good reading

or better remove wire #140 from pcb20 and check w140 its resistance out of circuit.

That should also give an idea if w140 is open beyond pcb20 back to sol19
check its marking so we are sure it is w140
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Last edited by GWIZ; 06-25-2020 at 07:35 PM.
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  #114  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
here you go.. I posted it twice.. Once with flash, once without..
Thank you,

I'll look this over for a bit and see what soaks in.

Find a cool spot and enjoy.

Scott
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  #115  
Old 06-26-2020, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotts View Post
Scott

edit, I asked because we had a lift with a level sensor on it. It would only go up a very small amount when it tripped the off level sensor and only go toward the ground.

Your unit may have this as well, When it was all working was it in the same spot as it is now or did you drive it around and it stopped working?

Wild thoughts just have to ask though.

I am attaching a picture of a print you posted. On the left side there is a tilt sw shown on there. Find it and check it with your meter. The one I took apart had a pendulum type apparatus in it an it was broken not letting the lift go up.
It looks like it provides a path to ground when it is working correctly.
I think you got it. the level sensor.

In this case I'm thinking a path to ground sets the lock-out. with 4 wires its a bit tricky on what it does inside.
I'm guessing a pendulum encircled by magnets, move the machine and the magnet traps a steel pendulum to ground, just a guess.



Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
So the functions from the basket are exactly the same.. No boom up, riser up or tele extend nor basket turn.
<> By the looks of it it may go down BUT no up.


The same deal with 12.5V at the wire at the hydraulic solenoid when activated then drops off to nothing within a few seconds.
<> What SOL ?


RISER: With ground switch on, and Riser selected. Relay 31 activates and LED comes on, LED 22 relay K22 and LED 23 and K23. Power at 12.5v on PCB wire out. 20, 22, 50, 74, 76, and 79.

BOOM
: With Ground switch on, and boom selected.

K22 and K23 power with LED's on PCB 50,74, 76, 79


Well after all this, I think it's a bad relay..

PCB 51 has the same fault as at the end of the wire on the solenoid. This is a big step.

I'll pull the relay out of somewhere else and stick it in there and see what happens.
By the looks of it LED22-"RED", is indicating a "Tilt Signal" lock-out
as long as LED22 is on.

What you are missing is K22 is a SPDT relay
in its off state K22 sends power to SOL-8 (up)

1) when K22 is energized the contact switches from A to B removing power from sol-8 to the LED22 and lights up.

--------
TEST
Turn all power off
pcb-55 has two wires connected w37
A good guess is that one of the wires is shorted to ground (51 common ground)

set your meter to the lowest ohm scale and measure each of both wires from ground.

You should get no reading or very high likely well over 100,000 ohms.

One wire is likely the buzzer?
The other is likely SW37 (may have to be manually reset SW37).
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Last edited by GWIZ; 06-26-2020 at 05:25 AM.
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  #116  
Old 06-26-2020, 08:07 AM
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I will check all things when I get back.

Sadly there is no diagrams with components with the same markings on them.

It's a matter of tracing a wire or starting to know what they are because of looking at other parts so long.

Personally much of the wiring as layed out does not make sense compared with othe schematics I've worked with.

Like having listed several solenoids for boom/riser when there is only 1 mounted below the control box yet it shows 2.

So part of it is assumption. There is no level switch in the basket I could find.

The only level switch is in the engine compartment.
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.

https://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums...860#post766860
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  #117  
Old 06-26-2020, 08:10 AM
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There is only 1 boom/rise solenoid as it is a shared unit. There is a solenoid separate that controls which cylinder is fed.
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.

https://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums...860#post766860
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  #118  
Old 06-26-2020, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
The only level switch is in the engine compartment.
This would be correct. as it would be located at the center of balance of the machine. Are the wire numbers available on the sensor at the sensor?

I hear some of these sensors pick up a flat tire. A very flat tire like the rim sitting on the ground flat, not flat like a low air pressure tire.

You should not find any kind of tilt or out of level switch in the basket as It would render the machine kind of useless for some of the fun things to do with it.

Take that level sensor off and roll it around in your hand to see if it makes any of the LEDs go off and on.

Scott
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  #119  
Old 06-26-2020, 11:16 AM
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Should be the one marked SW37
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  #120  
Old 06-26-2020, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWIZ View Post
I think you got it. the level sensor.

In this case I'm thinking a path to ground sets the lock-out. with 4 wires its a bit tricky on what it does inside.
I'm guessing a pendulum encircled by magnets, move the machine and the magnet traps a steel pendulum to ground, just a guess.





By the looks of it LED22-"RED", is indicating a "Tilt Signal" lock-out
as long as LED22 is on.

What you are missing is K22 is a SPDT relay
in its off state K22 sends power to SOL-8 (up)

1) when K22 is energized the contact switches from A to B removing power from sol-8 to the LED22 and lights up.

--------
TEST
Turn all power off
pcb-55 has two wires connected w37
A good guess is that one of the wires is shorted to ground (51 common ground)

set your meter to the lowest ohm scale and measure each of both wires from ground.

You should get no reading or very high likely well over 100,000 ohms.

One wire is likely the buzzer?
The other is likely SW37 (may have to be manually reset SW37).


Ok, so after your guys suggestions I spent some time doing exactly as told.

I pulled the wires and checked Ohms.. One leg + was 150ohm. there are 2 wires on 37.. 37A and 37B ..

I check 37B + and - with test probes they were 0.00ohm or no reading - and 37A was the 150ohms when tested + or red lead.

I then chased over to the level sensor and pulled all the wires, pulled the sensor, cleaned the bulls eye/float bubble, and then cleaned off the 2 LED's on the bottom which were covered in paint.

2 springs were rusted out..

So once everything was clean I cleaned the connections and retested the wires and yup 150ohms.

I then turned the key on and looked and the little green light came on the bottom of the level sensor.

I then tried the functions from the control box and -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

they worked.. YUP.. they worked..

I then climbed into the basket and no luck.. So I pulled the top off and tightened the wires on the PCB sprayed them all with Deoxit and rocked the relays some, cleaned the connections on most of the switches and put the cover back on..

I then started it from the basket and ---------------------------------------------------------------..

It worked..

The Grove manlift as of right now is working.

I might have to clean the upper connections one or 2 more times..

When the basket was tilted forwards water got in there as well as several hornets nests.. but since I have put on a seal around to keep critters out.


As always I feel honored to be part of the group here on SFT and so appreciative of all the help and guidance you guys give so willingly and patiently putting up with my folly..

Scotts and GWIZ thanks so much.. Hugs big time.. (you guys rose above the call of duty)..

So it is interesting that after it worked last time I had been over there cleaning wires.. Guess I must have hit it enough so things worked until it settled back down because of no springs on 2 sides.


I really can't thank you guys enough.


GWIZ you pointing out that the relay when active was actually a bad thing helped a lot.. I don't often think of a relay disabling current flow.

Now that the electrics are working I will dig into the swivel and replace the orings.. then I will get started on hoses..


Thanks again guys.. YOU ALL ARE THE BEST.. HUGS..


So the only thing left that isn't working is the basket pivot function.. the idle comes up and can hear the pump working but seems to be a solenoid not working..
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__________________
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.

https://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums...860#post766860
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