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  #21  
Old 03-01-2018, 03:48 PM
Oliver Wendell Douglas Oliver Wendell Douglas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
It really depends on sizes..

I can not tell from your die you shown how big the item cut out is..


As a blacksmith first, then a welder, then a person who uses accurate machine tools..

With it said that way.. If I had a need for the same item over and over again it would be faster for me to make a male die then make a bottom swage with the male die.. This would of course add all the details needed for the finish piece but would not cut the outline.. That would have to be done with another die or by hand..

Laser, or EDM would be the best options for the item you shown.. Laser is extremely small curf as is edm..

Blacksmithing dies there is a lot of rawness as the level of consistent accuracy is not as high on the priority list as we hand forge each piece though they may look the same get hit or forged each and every time just a little bit differently though they look the same when finished..
There's a penny next to the Pegasus ; the Peg is 2" x 1.5" .
For the crowd I deal with, any die is an upgrade from sawing or hand shearing parts. Some jewelry people use photoetching , and of course, casting . Swanstrom makes lots of hand-held 2-piece dies in stock shapes .
But for custom dies, pancakes are the easiest way I know of, but they have to be done just right to get really good tools . The wire edm works great ,because they can cut at the needed tilt, but lasers don't, as far as I know, which is why Potter USA dies are cut straight, and have problems that well-made pancake dies generally don't . The angle is the key to tight tolerance .

I think I get what you're saying about a male (shaping or design-imprinting?) male die and a (female) swage die on bottom , not cutting the outline . There's a version of pancake die I make that has a plastic protective block attached , that protects 3-D parts from getting smashed , while the outline is being cut (the outer flange is being cut away).
That's usually for making puffy/pillowed dimensional pieces , simple bump-ups (though complicated shapes are possible) without a solid female/bottom die, then the trim step in the pancake die .

I have a shot of that here:
http://sheltech.net/bwg_gallery/two-step-dies/

crazy hand made dies here:

http://sheltech.net/products-services/special-dies/



There's more stuff here:
http://userblogs.ganoksin.com/sheltech/

I'm still in limbo land after the "photobutthead" site fiasco, and don't
have a proper image hosting site going yet . lazy/busy, same as it ever was .

Dar
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2018, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Wendell Douglas View Post

I'm still in limbo land after the "photobutthead" site fiasco, and don't
have a proper image hosting site going yet .
Dar
lol
And there you have it, one of the main reasons we do not allow embedded images from off-site hosting.
If you had uploaded those pictures to our server, they would stay here.
Otherwise, they tend to vanish over time.

I noticed it about 6 months after we came online, in 2004. A fellow had posted some really nice pictures of his air compressor restoration. There was nothing special about the compressor but he did such a nice job and his photos were outstanding. This was back when hardly anyone had a good digital camera. I was really proud of that thread.
Then six months later, "Poof!" They were gone. He had edited his Photobucket page.
Soooooo, I started hounding everyone to upload their photos.

Next, we started getting the internet butterflies - those guys who would register & paste in a boiler plate "thread" about their build projects, hang around couple of days to bask in the compliments and disappear.
One young fellow showed up with 43 huge pictures , no separations, all pasted together like a bad watercolor, all url's in one post with 2 lines of text.

I uploaded his first 5 photos, pointed him to the FAQ & told him to upload the rest if he so chose. He said "ha ha" and moved on.
So did we.
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2018, 07:32 AM
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allessence allessence is offline
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I love the fact that images are uploaded.. I never knew it was a problem until until coming here though I would see it on other sites as well.. I stopped using photobucket for that exact reason..
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If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

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Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2018, 07:35 AM
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allessence allessence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Wendell Douglas View Post
There's a penny next to the Pegasus ; The wire edm works great ,because they can cut at the needed tilt, but lasers don't, as far as I know, which is why Potter USA dies are cut straight, and have problems that well-made pancake dies generally don't . The angle is the key to tight tolerance .

I think I get what you're saying about a male (shaping or design-imprinting?) male die and a (female) swage die on bottom , not cutting the outline . There's a version of pancake die I make that has a plastic protective block attached , that protects 3-D parts from getting smashed , while the outline is being cut (the outer flange is being cut away).
That's usually for making puffy/pillowed dimensional pieces , simple bump-ups (though complicated shapes are possible) without a solid female/bottom die, then the trim step in the pancake die .
.

Dar
The new 5 axis EDMs' as well as the new 5 axis lasers could do those in a matter of seconds..

Nice thing about either is the fact you can start with hardened materials and you won't lose much life out of the dies..
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Jennifer

If I defend myself I am attacked.

My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world.

My attack thoughts are attacking my invulnerability.

I'd like to think of something smart, but I don't want to hurt myself.

My google+ page

DoALL 36"
Another Johnson model J Project
Lathe? Maybe..... 1958 SBL 13"
Yeti Esseti Aka running welder on 3phase.
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  #25  
Old 03-03-2018, 04:46 AM
Oliver Wendell Douglas Oliver Wendell Douglas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allessence View Post
The new 5 axis EDMs' as well as the new 5 axis lasers could do those in a matter of seconds..

Nice thing about either is the fact you can start with hardened materials and you won't lose much life out of the dies..
Then I'm a dinosaur nearing the end of it's useful life . Maybe that's a good thing ...

But maybe not quite useless yet. Last time I priced out edm work, it was cheaper for me to do stuff my way, and cheaper for people having me do it my way .

The problem I ran into years ago was that it was too slow to make a complex toolpath like the Pegasus, for one-off dies to be worth making. There was one guy making pancake dies with a wire edm, but didn't make them "tight" enough , i.m.o. He was also making multiples of the same design, not one-off, custom dies like I do. The times I sent dies (too big for my manual gear (saw, kiln) to guys with edm's , it was too expensive for me to buy the work and sell it with a mark up. Plus, they ended up ditching me because they said they were getting glitches and funky stuff going on because of the angle. The people that said "no problem" were ridiculously expensive.

On top of that, I'm a Luddite when it comes to modern machinery ; background is handmade jewelry , last 30 years has been handmade dies . It's not like I'll be surprised if I become obsolete, but so far, there has been a demand within the jewelry and metal art community,
of people needing what I offer, and not wanting to bother doing it themselves.

DS
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  #26  
Old 03-03-2018, 04:52 AM
Oliver Wendell Douglas Oliver Wendell Douglas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter View Post
lol
And there you have it, one of the main reasons we do not allow embedded images from off-site hosting.
If you had uploaded those pictures to our server, they would stay here.
Otherwise, they tend to vanish over time.

I noticed it about 6 months after we came online, in 2004. A fellow had posted some really nice pictures of his air compressor restoration. There was nothing special about the compressor but he did such a nice job and his photos were outstanding. This was back when hardly anyone had a good digital camera. I was really proud of that thread.
Then six months later, "Poof!" They were gone. He had edited his Photobucket page.
Soooooo, I started hounding everyone to upload their photos.

Next, we started getting the internet butterflies - those guys who would register & paste in a boiler plate "thread" about their build projects, hang around couple of days to bask in the compliments and disappear.
One young fellow showed up with 43 huge pictures , no separations, all pasted together like a bad watercolor, all url's in one post with 2 lines of text.

I uploaded his first 5 photos, pointed him to the FAQ & told him to upload the rest if he so chose. He said "ha ha" and moved on.
So did we.
Well, I can be flighty when it comes to forums , but I'm making an effort to go to a couple where I actually have something useful to contribute, instead of the usual time-wasting trash-talking I'm addicted to on a couple of non-work-related boards

FAQ.....FAQ.... I think I know what those letters stand for

DS
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  #27  
Old 03-03-2018, 05:10 AM
Oliver Wendell Douglas Oliver Wendell Douglas is offline
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test-o-rama 200 x200 fractal
looks like it worked.

80 kb Sun Face , made with one-step cut/form
pancake die and plastic steel female mold.
looks like it worked.

Tiny Fancy Stuff - small, intricate parts cut from
regular pancake dies .

(120 kb) Stag Die - one step cut/emboss pancake die .
magically resized as thumb . good setup , mr. mod

uno mas....

Tiny Strat -die and part .040" sterling

Alrightey, then , that went well.
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  #28  
Old 03-03-2018, 09:19 AM
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greywynd greywynd is offline
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I suspect that with the experience you have, there’s some intuition at play when you are making these. Not just the angle that you set your saw at, but also how you ‘roll’ around corners etc. That intuition makes up for a whole ton of cad data when it comes to trying to do something like this ‘by the numbers’.

What do you use to ‘press’ the parts out, is it a small press or what do you use?


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  #29  
Old 03-03-2018, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Wendell Douglas View Post

FAQ.....FAQ.... I think I know what those letters stand for

DS
Dar, It seems to me you might thinking more of the FFAQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Wendell Douglas View Post


Alrightey, then , that went well.
Good. Now, just so you know - early on we also had the consideration of dealing with very slow internet connections more than we do now, and we still have a few members scattered around the world who do not have access to high speeds. So we were aiming at relatively small limits on file sizes.
That kid with the 43 pictures in one thread imposed a total download that would have caused a 5 minute wait for a lot of people.

However, later improvements in our software pretty much takes care of that.
You can now upload large files to our server if you want to and the software will compress the files automatically. You don't usually have to compress image files before hand unless you are dealing with really huge image files.
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"Dr. Chandran, will I dream?"

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"Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. Thus people haunted by the purposelessness of their lives try to find a new content not only by dedicating themselves to a holy cause but also by nursing a fanatical grievance. A mass movement offers them unlimited opportunities for both."
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  #30  
Old 03-03-2018, 04:28 PM
Oliver Wendell Douglas Oliver Wendell Douglas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywynd View Post
I suspect that with the experience you have, there’s some intuition at play when you are making these. Not just the angle that you set your saw at, but also how you ‘roll’ around corners etc. That intuition makes up for a whole ton of cad data when it comes to trying to do something like this ‘by the numbers’.

What do you use to ‘press’ the parts out, is it a small press or what do you use?


Sent from my iPhone using ShopFloorTalk mobile app
HI,
Yes , and with this type of die there's a lot of nuance with the angle, that comes into play (as explained earlier) with different degrees of intricacy of design, and metal thicknesses. On some designs, the best results are had by adjusting the angle by a half or full degree depending on complexity of a specific area. That's easy with the tilting saw tables I use ; I don't know how much extra hassle that would be on a machine, but I remember using what seemed like a pretty good line-making program (Cutting Shop by Arbor Image ) and not having an easy time with complex designs.

My hope was for something that would be more like "scan and go", but apparently even the finest line (even) a drafting pencil makes has enough "fuzziness" and artifacts to muck with the path-generating ability
of the program. I quit pursuing the idea for myself a number of years ago. "Slap and saw" (spray -glue the drawn design onto the steel and proceed ) is where I'm at , feet firmly planted in the late 19th Century

For pressing , I use units made by Bonny Doon Engineering (sold by Rio Grande Jewelry Supply in ALB NM) ; older versions. They have a line of gear aimed at jewelry people ; benchtop units , mostly. Similar to what (Kevin) Potter USA has, but the frames are more ... expensive (sturdier), and Phil Poirier has put some hardcore R&D into their design. I have pics of the older models that I use. They run on electric pumps from Power team (I canned Enerpac after I found out they didn't have parts for a beast that died). A one hp , and a half hp, bot 10k p.s.i. . I saw that Potter offers a good looking electric pump setup that runs at lower p.s.i. . I haven't seen one in person but his approach was intriguing when I asked him about it (a couple years ago).

Presses: first 2 shots are of the 50-tonner , which has a suction enclosure
above (and usually all around) for the rusty steel I have to punch/emboss for one client . Also shown : my humble workhorse of a 12" shear .

The one with SpongeBob supervising is the 25- ton press station . I use foot switches so that I have both hands free to cycle 2 dies during production.

The saws I use are old and funky , and photos are are impossible to understand even if you know you're looking at a saw, so I slapped this
together recently :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeOnQ6To6EE

Other p-die vids of mine there , too ( I finally joined the 20th Century , but I draw the line there )

Dar (I like making messes , and leaving them alone)
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