Cutter's Vise ~ In the Beginning

[cutter]

The damned thing fit perfectly!

To my total astonishment, the screwholes matched precisely to the vise & the collar bolted up like it was supplied
by the factory, no modifications at all. I just sat there on the ground staring at it for a little while, then strutted around drinking coffee & bragging to my dogs for half an hour. Of course, I only had two screws that matched each other so I had to go back to the shop & find a mate; while I was at it, I dug a little deeper and came up with a set of spares, having a curious notion that I may break a set before this stuck jaw finally gets free. So, I removed my new collar and the vise went back in the drink, and the big screw into the other vat. I guess I could have bought a new replacement collar from Wilton for maybe $20 or $30? But you know, why not have this $200 one which is about what I should pay myself for the time it consumed?




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posted by: Banzaitoyota

But does it work yet?


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posted by Cutter 03-25-2004

That depends upon what your definition of "is" is. If you mean what you probably think I think you think "works" means, then the answer is no. That's why it's back in the gargabe can still hooked up to the charger. Besides, I need to sell more ads before it works.


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posted by: fla jim

"Bill" Cutter!
Buddy, I think you need to get more sleep, even your dogs are starting to look at you funny


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posted by: Franz

This is your lucky day. For the next 15 minutes we're running a special on Uncle Franz Secret Rust Removal concentrate. If you're among the first 50 customers to call, we'll not only double the amount of rust remover concentrate we send you, we'll sell your Master Card number to a Hatian scammer at no extra charge.
Call NOW, don't get left out. Our toll free number is 1-800-FAT-Chance. Hurry, operators are standing by.


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posted by: Newb

Hey, I dialed that 1-800-FAT-Chance and got some chineese speaking man answering the phone as Hellof and thank you for calling Hobart's Offshore Factory

Great collar Cutter. I'm going out to buy a new couch so I have a proper seat to see how this ends.

Franz, will I get my remover next week, or do I wait the typical 6-8 weeks for shipping? I will make sure to hold my breath out on the front stoop.

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posted by: OlPilot

That vise is hung up like two dogs except unfortunately a bucket of water won't work. But I still think the O/A trick with a rosebud might work. The reason is that iron oxide is a lousy thermal conductor compared to cast steel. So you ought to be able to apply a good amount of heat to the outside before much heat can transfer through the rust to the inner piece and cause it to expand. Heating the outer and chilling the inner sounds good, but it would be tough to figure out how to chill that inner piece with CO2, R-134A, etc, without pulling the heat away from the outer piece, so I think I'd just stick with heating the outer section.

I'd still give Uncle Franz's magic potion more time to work, but if it doesn't or you loose patience, then it'll be time to call in the O/A heavy artillery. That's 60 KSI tensile cast steel, low on the Rockwell C-Scale, so there no need to worry about knocking out heat treat (there really isn't any) with O/A. Just don't melt the critter!


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posted by Cutter 03-28-2004

Sigh.
There is no progress to report. I left it in the barrel 4 more days just changing the electrode from time to time. Got a few more ounces of rust & debris so I finally hoisted it back out yesterday afternoon and tried pulling it apart with the comealong. No dice.
Then I hauled my little torch back there and tried a little heat but I ran out of day light so I just left it with a
few hundred pounds of pull on it; it didn't look any different this morning. I doubt this old torch (another story, by the way ) is big enough to supply enough heat.

However, I did dream about it this morning just as I was waking up. In the dream, I had reassembled it and
cranked it apart with the screw & that is probably worth a shot because the screw exerts a straight line pull
whereas the chains & comealong pull at an angle sufficient to cause it to bind. I guess the worst that could
happen would be that I might break the collar screws and have to fish them out - again.


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posted by: 7018

Well its worth a try cutter! like u say u can only breakthe screws,but who knows mite work!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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posted by: Franz

And here we see the disadvantage of using cheap substitutes for the Genuin Uncle Franz Rust Dissolver. yes, substitutes do work, sometimes, but your results won't be the same as using the genuine original Uncle Franz secret formula Rust Dissolver.
WARNING, due to the price of fuel going up, Uncle Franz may not be able to offer the Secret Ingredient at our currently low outrageous prices. Order your kit now, before price increases take effect.


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posted by Cutter 03-28-2004

Uncle Franz' Secret Formulas

That reminds me, I need to prepare your invoice for the month. I'll try to do that by tommorow.

Well, so much for that Sunday morning dream; some dreams are just damn lies, I guess.

Here's a quick rundown on what happened Sunday. I installed the nut & screw & collar, tuned the torch up for better heat and did the best it would do to heat up the outer case with the screw under pressure at all times. Finally I applied a 2 pound sledge to the handle to try to break it loose & I was rewarded with 3 bent collar screws and a slightly warped collar. So I flatted the collar back out by simply reversing the screw and tried 3 more screws; this time 2 of them slipped the threads before I gave up. I guess I may have to retap the screwholes before this is over. I also tried standing the vise on end and squirting 3 in 1 penetrating oil on the inside for an hour, reversing it & applying it to the other end for an hour or so, again with no noticeable effect. So I polished up the electrodes and dropped her back in the water for a few more days.

Monday I bought a can of PB Blaster to try next time I haul it back up to the surface. It probably can't penetrate very deep but I guess every little bit may pay off some day. This morning I re-read every post in this thread & was reminded that I set out at one time to insert the rebar through the hole to try to get more action inside but once the vise went into the garbage can that idea sorta got lost; actually it just wasn't practical until I removed the long nut because the rebar tended to short out to it.
But since the nut is out of the way, I could try that approach again.

This has been going on now since March 2nd, almost a month. We have all been able to see that electrolysis is a heck of a tool for removing external rust & crud. I gotta remember that the cylinder of the front jaw extends more than a foot into the main casting; that's a lot of area for the internal rust to occupy so it's pretty easy to understand why it takes so much time to "thaw". Even though the rust is pretty much gone from the outside surface, it still is accumulating on the electrodes just as fast so I can tell there is just about as much action taking place as ever. So, it simply has to be making headway. Maybe that's what the dream was trying to tell me.


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posted by: Newb

I got a chance to reload the snacks during intermission. Have my credit card ready for more of Franz's solution.


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posted by: david_r

cutter,
There is a small gap on the jaws, right? Why not apply some judicious force to try and close the vice? Seems to me when I'm trying to break stuff appart that pounding on it does it better than pulling. I might even try a little pounding along the body while the screw was in tension. The vibrations may be enough.

Of course, if you crack it you're on your own.


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posted by Cutter 03-30-2004

Believe me, all these things have been tried; I positioned a wooden block in front of the jaw & pounded it with an 8lb. sledge without a hint of movement other than propelling the whole thing gradually across the yard. The sides are already peppered with hammer marks made while the jaw was under pressure in both directions.

I even dreamed about it again last night, seeing it slip apart with virtually no effort. And I am the one who never remembers dreams anymore.

I am now pondering somehow removing the cupped piece at the back end to expose that end of the cylinder, or whatever it is called, so that I can contemplate some way of rigging up a jack or portapower to try to squeeze it backwards from that end. But that piece is also locked in & there is virtually nothing to grab or pry on to try to get it loose. I suspect it has to be pressed in so that presents a major undertaking in itself.

This is the cone I am referring to: the cylinder end is immediately to the right of the hole that takes the locking pin for the long nut. I also think that removing that piece would allow for better electrolytic action of the insides of the vise.

[cutter]

posted by Cutter 03-31-2004

Here is the cylinder end exposed.



nite vision photo

Oh what the hell, I can take pictures at 4am just about as good as any other time. Here is the keyway and you can see how tight this thing fits together. As my brother used to say, "fits like Maw & Paw". So I soaked it in Blaster again & came back in the house.




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posted by: INTP

Pretty soon, I'm going to start dreaming about it, too. This is a really fun thread

to follow.


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posted by: Bolt

So Cutter,

When are you going to give up and put it out by you're dumpster? I'll figure out where you live by that time and come by and pick it up.

Or, you could just admit defeat, and let me know, I'll come pick it up personally.


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posted by: 7018

I think u should put it in a press and apply some heat,Sure hope u get that thing apart! Would be nice to see it working again.


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posted by Cutter 04-01-2004

Thanks for all the comments & advice, guys. This whole thing has been lots of fun for me & I can't get over the amount of interest this thread has stirred up. 4,000 hits and counting? That's phenomenal. Your participation has made this so much more enjoyable for me; I feel like I am the custodian of some kind of historical restoration project where the world is watching and pulling for the old vise to come through a crucial surgery or something. LOL, the only thing is I feel like I can't quit no matter what happens now; you would all never forgive me so failure is unthinkable.

Paul, I would love to be able to put it in a press but I can't quite imagine how to jig up to do that; the thrust would need to be in a straight line and that means I would have to build something to hold the main casting by the stationary jaw assembly. I've never seen a small press designed to accommodate such a riggin'. That would be another project in itself.

So I am going to try to implement Franz's suggestion & use an airhammer to try & shock it loose. Last night on my way home I stopped by the shop/barn & cut a steel disc out of 1/4 inch plate to mount directly against the back side of the slide, and grabbed an airhammer while I was there but it was way after dark before I got home. So first opportunity I have, I will give it a go. It seems like that if I can ever get the thing to move at all, the rest will be downhill.

I made a discovery while I was at the barn. Watch for new thread "coming soon to a theatre near you" about a Baby Wilton machinist's vise.


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posted by: rusted

LOL more vices (sic)? This is the kind of thread that makes a msg board. I can't wait to see this baby in action.


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posted by: Franz

Go gently Cutter on the trigger of the air hammer, and remember,
Always use Uncle Franz products with the secret ingredients.


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posted by: Banzaitoyota

Can I have the Uncle FRanz Miracle Powder Franchise for the SE region of the USA?


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posted by: Franz

Only if you can slide over to Marbury, Al and dispose of my wife's daughter. I
don't care what you do with her, as long as she completely disappears.


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posted by: Banzaitoyota

I do have access to a crematorium


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posted by: 7018

Well cutter try not to keep us waiting to long. I don't know about the rest of the guys,but i would like to see that vice working!!!!


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posted by: John Deere

Hey, I had just took a look at this post today, and what a deal.... We have that exact same vice bolted to the work bench in our shop..... Its brand new to.... That is one heck of a vice if ya get it workin....... I cant wait to see her... lol Good luck Cutter!

John Deere


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posted by: OlPilot

Hey Guys, it's a vise, not a vice. We all have our vices and some people, like Bill Clinton, have more than the normal share.

[cutter]

posted by: 7018

OlPilot this has become a vice, why else would we keep coming back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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posted by: Newb

I'm waiting for the tshirts and dvds to come out.


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posted by: rusted

If there's not an update soon I'm gonna have withdrawls.


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posted by: Newb

I think it's intermission time


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posted by: 7018

nope not yet lots more VICE"S to see!!!!!


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posted by: OlPilot

If Uncle Franz's Magic Derusting Potion doesn't work, there's always C-4, as long as the ATF snoops aren't skulking about.


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posted by: Franz

And NOW, a word from our sponsor, Uncle Franz's magic derusting system.
This week, we are offering a sale on our magnificent carbon anodes, for those who really want to see this process run around the clock without having to clean anodes.
Only a limited supply is available, so we will be offering the kits to existing customers first. Contact your Uncle Franz sales representative today, and have your customer number handy.


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posted by Cutter 04-09-2004


quote:
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Originally posted by rusted
If there's not an update soon I'm gonna have withdrawls.
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Gosh guys, sorry I have neglected you. But there has really been nothing positive to report lately.
Last weekend was an experiment in trying to come up with a way to put some real linear pressure on that locked jaw from the backside. Then the rains came again & have persisted off & on ever since. However, I have picked up a piece of I-Beam to use to secure the vise to while I try to jack it apart. After a couple of dry weekdays when I don't have time for the Wilton, the rain came again tonight & is forecast for the weekend. So I don't know whether I can make any real progress or not. Meanwhile, it is stored in the blue garbage can in the faint hope that something good can still come of it. If and when I make any progress, believe me I will be telling the world.

I do want to say that I really appreciate your continued interest in this project. We have all had a lot of fun with it and it has been a real education for me. I had used electrolysis to remove rust from a couple of smaller, less rusty objects in the past but nothing this large nor anything with so much ancient rust. I was surprised how quickly the outside cleaned up and almost as surprised at how stubborn the rust has been in the tight spots where it remains seized.

Caps and t-shirts are very do-able; I actually have some experience with advertising specialties way back in a previous life. But I am thinking of also offering imprinted panties for the gals in your lives; I would only sell petite, small and mediums so you could be sure to buy the one that would actually fit if she really is one of those sizes but more importantly, you could be assured of getting a size too small for that more "mature-sized" woman in your life. It's never a bad idea to let her think that you see her *** as being just right.


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posted by: 7018

well about those panties im not showing that post the the wife!!!!lmao but its a good one


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posted by: fla jim

that brings back memories.
Back in my previous life in the Navy. I was on a supply ship. (USS Niagara Falls AFS 3)
When we would Replenish other ships, We had a sign the ship would display "WELCOME ALONGSIDE HOW CAN WE SERVICE YOU"
Well someone got the bright idea to have some "Panties made with that logo to give to girlfriends. These were sold in the "Ships store".
When we would go ashore overseas in the Philippines, all the local girls would ask if we could get them "NIAGARA FALLS" panties.




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posted by: rusted

Well Jim, maybe we can make a pair of panties in tribute; sayings like 'Tight as cutter's vise' or 'rusted shut from neglect'... On second thought...


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posted by: Franz

Cutter, please tell me you're keeping that vise submerged in Magic Solution.

Jim, in the New Modern Navy those panties would definitely get you in deep sh!t for sexual harassment.

Rusted, I ain't touchin those lines with a 14 foot Serb, let alone a 10 foot Pole.


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posted by Cutter 04-09-2004

Yup. That's what I meant by:
"Meanwhile, it is stored in the blue garbage can in the faint hope that something good can still come of it."
And the charger is still hooked up.


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posted by: Banzaitoyota

Nice target you sailed on.

[cutter]

posted by: Jim314

Cutter, someone beat you too it. They're already on sale on the internet.




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posted by: 7018

Shouldn't they have worded it My Vice is like cutter's vise!!!!


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posted by: Newb

By the time I get to Phoenix I'll be sleeping.

This ain't no soap opera any more, it's like my wife torturing me with the Thornbirds or something just kidding, but any updates?


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posted by: 7018

I just think he's taking a break VICE"S can get tiring sometimes !!


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posted by Cutter 04-15-2004

Ok, ok.

The reason there have been no updates is because my last 2 weekends got hijacked by my daughter. I had to work on her old house she has under contract to sell. I finally finished my part last Sunday night so I hope to get back to the vise this Saturday.
It has been continuously under the soup and hooked to the charger ever since my last report. We also had 2 weeks of below normal temperatures and rain off & on - very unusual for the area. I simply do not have any time for it on weekdays other than to change or clean the positive electrode.

The plan for this weekend is to somehow chain the vise and a bottle jack to an I-beam and try to push the jaw out from the back. This is going to take considerable rigging to get it done in such a way as to keep the 2 parts lined up straight under that much pressure. It's what I have referred to earlier as a poor man's hydraulic press. I also plan to heat the main casting if necessary & unless the 2 or 3 weeks of further de-rusting has done a lot of good, heat will be required


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posted by: 7018

Well here's wishing u all the luck in the world cutter hope u get it apart!!!


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posted by: rusted

For using hydraulic jack and I-beam to loosen:

It seems if you lay the jack and vise horizontally on the *ground*, cement driveway for example, and then chain them to an I-beam as straight as possible, you could lay another board or beam over the length of the assembly then drive your truck up on there and keep it straight while you jacked it apart.

OTOH if the thing let loose with 5 tons of pressure on it, it's liable to shoot iron parts through your vehicle.

This from a guy who has used a 98 2500 Ram diesel 4x4, a receiver hitch, job chain, and an oak tree to compress struts. Dad backs into the tree and holds down on the throttle while I chain the strut closed. Adrenaline is good for ya!


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posted by: Bolt

But not all jacks will work laying down flat.

Or maybe it's just mine, with not enough oil in them.


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posted by Cutter 04-16-2004

I already fixed that problem, Bolt. Low oil. Just lay it down & fill it until it tops off & it'll work fine. The biggest problem is alignment and keeping it that way. I am looking forward to it. Hope nothing comes up to interfere tomorow.

Rusted, I think we'll leave the truck out of it. There's enough to worry about as it is, especially since the vise has no flat planes to work with & responds to the pressure by trying to tip & bend out of the way. I already got the feel for it (sort of) by trying to strap it to a board a couple of weeks ago. I knew it wouldn't be rigid enough but it showed me which way it wanted to go. I decided I couldn't use the bolt holes on the base of the vise because it would just break them off unless I managed to get it cradled almost perfectly - not likely to happen under these conditions.


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posted by: 7018

All jacks will work laying flat it u put the pump side down. And Cutter im sure ur a smart enough man to get it done with hurting ur self or someone or something else!!


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posted by Cutter 04-24-2004

I really don't know where to start with this post. I have been trying to get motivated for 2 days but I lack inspiration to do it justice, so I guess I'll just do it quick & down & dirty.
As you may recall, I set out a week or so ago to build a poor man's press to try & force the jaw out from the back side. Here is what I came up with.
In the first place, the shape and design of a vise does not lend itself to placement in a conventional hydraulic press. It just don't fit, so I decided the idea was to somehow tie the thing in place on a beam, hold it in alignment and block a jack into place behind it in the fastest & cheapest way I could. It took a couple of attempts to get this:



A couple of notes about the above photo:
The 4 ft galvanized pipe in the forground is the cheater I used on the handle. I have barely gotten the tension on the chains in that pic, just enough pull the top chain into a fairly straight line. When the pressure increases the little jack tilts into a straighter alignment than is shown there.

I had cut another steel 3" circle to fit against the back of the jaw's slide as you can sort of see in the photo below - for the jack to push against. Since there is a steel guide in the bottom of the main casting & a matching 1/2" x 3/8 " slot in the bottom of the slide, I had to cut a notch into the bottow of the disk & keep it aligned with the guide. I welded a stick of all-thread to it and ran it all the way through the jaw and locked it with a nut & washer on the front of the jaw. You can see the all-thread in the top photo.

[cutter]

So, I started jacking until I was lifting the entire thing off the ground and then got out the torch & started heating the outside casting, starting with the area around the front of the hole that the front jaw slides into, then along the lower part just above the base. By the time I worked the flame all the way back & around the other side to the front, I was boiling rusty gunk out of the front opening. Still no movement.
Darkness was fast coming, I was about ready to give up for the night & thinking of getting bigger jack.
Here is a picture of the heated area, Th discoloration is really just burned rust powder which coats the vise as part of the derusting process. Brushes off easily - not a problem. You can see the rusty water under the front jaw, on the beam.



It was a dark & stormy night. A pirate's ship appeared on the horizon. A shot rang out, the beautiful woman screamed - oh, sorry - that's a different thread.

So I studied my situation, wondering more heat would help? Doubtful since the water boiled out of the front, I had probably heated the slide, too. So maybe it would be best to just leave it under the maximum pressure & hope the expansion & contraction would work some sort of magic? So I got a piece of 1/8th inch plate and positioned it so as to protect my shins from flying chain should something give and put on my gloves.



I put on my gloves, positioned my feet, slipped the cheater onto the handle and gave it my best heave - and broke the f***ing jack.


The shackle assembly, pump/piston lay on the lower rail fo the beam along with half of the knuckle.

[cutter]

posted by Cutter 04-24-2004

So all that happened last Wednesday night. I have been busy since then but today on my way home, I picked up a bigger jack. It's a Larin, a Chinese thing with a missing pin that holds the same shackle-type pump assembly but that's easily fixed (already done in fact) but the ram is about twice the diameter of the little orange one so maybe & I can get a few more PSI out of it. It has an advertised lift of 20 tons; maybe it might be a valid ten? So maybe this weekend, the journey will take a better turn.
Don't miss the next thrilling episode when our guest may be famous pop psychologist Dr. Phil who will tell us how to cope with hopeless situations and doomed projects.

LOL.


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posted by: Jim314

Cutter, for someone who couldn't get motivated to start the update, you sure do tell a spellbinding story. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at the end.


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posted by Cutter 04-24-2004

LOL. I didn't either, but I opted for laughter. It's so much less expensive. I gotta go take a nap now.
BTW, I'm gonna miss that little orange jack - had it around for over 20 years; it would lift the front end of my old Blazer.


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posted by: 7018

Well cutter u done ur best!1 really liked ur post LMAO about the jack!!! But i'm sure u'll get the job done


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posted by: Franz

Cutter, Dr Phil's office just called, and they said yer makin a mountain out of a molehill.
That little orange jack has obviously been repaired before, we can all see the
brass in the picture, so ya can put it back together again. At least you didn't
bend the ram or shatter the top of the ram housing the way most Chink jacks do under a load.
Now, if you just build a base onto that complex fixture, you can turn the event into a combination vise jacking and anvil tossing event. Of course, setting the jack verticle and throwing a blanket over the top would probably eliminate the anvil toss factor.
If you run out of hydraulic jacks you can always use scaffold leveling screws.


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posted by: rusted

^^^ ^^^

Cutter, if it's any consolation, thanks for bringing drama to my ho-hum life.


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posted by: 1911Man

Hang in there Cutter! This thing has become an American epic.


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posted by: Paychk

Cutter

I recently went through something similar to this at work, cept it was a 2” X 12” long pin stuck in a hydraulic cylinder on a man lift. Every one was dreaming up ideas to un-stick it. The “Old Man” of the shop stated, “the only way it was coming out, was with wedges and heat”. So us young-uns all went ???? And he proceeded to show us “The Secret”. He had us weld a lug across the end of the pin and after it cooled, he put two wedges (10” long X 1¼” thick) between it and the boss it was sticking out of. He proceeded to put a “bind”, as he calls it, on it with what I call Thor’s Hammer (sawed off 10# sledgehammer). After about two minutes of Thor’s Hammer, the lug popped off and flew about eight feet in the air. Well, the welds were ripped right out of the end of the pin. So round two started with a ¾” thick lug verses the previous ½”. After that cooled, again a bind was put on it and then he fired up the largest rose bud I’ve ever seen, and in a matter of minutes the cylinder casting was a dull red. More of Thor’s Hammer and the pin started to move. An unbelievable amount of rust came pouring out of the joint between the mounting bosses and the pin. The pin bottomed out as, unknown to us, one end was slightly bigger than the other was. So we drove it back to it’s starting point and proceeded to wedge it back one more time. After that, we could drive it out from the body.

I’ve never seen something that could rip out welds by the root and those wedges sure had the power to do it. I’m a believer in wedge technology now, if your jacks don’t work, maybe you could set up a wedge to push the vise apart.


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posted by: atucker

Geesh - for this being a welding forum, you guys missed the best part. THE JACK BROKE BEFORE CUTTER'S WELDS. Think what he would have been in for if one of the

welds broke .

Allen T.


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posted by: Hickey

I was thinking the same thing. At least you have proved your welds are good.


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posted by: Banzaitoyota

keep it coming Cutter!!!


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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Well, it's been another week now so I have just about recovered from the last attempt to salvage this beat up old bahs-turd of a vise. Lessee, where was I when I quit last time..... go back to page 10 ....... aw crap! I thought I had posted the episode after the jack destruction. Damn damn damn, I have twice as much to report as I thought!
Well, ok. First of all, I had to find another jack, as you may recall. That required a little tinkering to get it to fit into the rig because of the extra length & of course I had to block it up less to reach the center of the slide. But I finally got it lined out and heeded Franz's advice about throwing a blanket over the chains to catch any broken parts that might get flung out. Actually, it was the canvas cover for an evaporative cooler that I had serviced out for the season earlier last week. Now, this was all taking place last Saturday, the 24th of May.
First of all, here is a sidebyside picture of the old & new jacks; you can see that there should be some more power even if the big one is Chinese. It uses a smaller pump & much larger ram so that each stroke results in about half as much travel as the little orange one. And it works about like using a smaller pulley on a motor shaft in that it takes less pull to operate the jack handle.



Now, there is another detail that I need to make clear because it factors in later. I had cut a 3" disc from 1/4 inch plate to place between the sliding tube of the front jaw and the ram of the jack to protect the tube from marring and also because the ram of either jack is smaller than the open area of the tube. Then, as I think I have mentioned, I welded a stick of all-thread to the disc and ran it through the vise to secure it in place because it had to be notched in the bottom to miss the guide in the main casting.
Keep this in mind for later reference. Here is that disc or buttplate positioned in the arse end of the vise.



So that is what I am jacking against. And here is what the new jack looked like ready to pump that old vise apart. Right?

[cutter]

posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Yup, it's pointing to the broken bolt with nut that had been holding the chains to the beam on the side. The canvas just happened to be in the right spot; otherwise, I might never have found it. And the bolt on the other side was just about ready to erupt as well:



I had to saw off the bent bolt to get it outta there. And that was the end of round 4. Round 5? I have lost track, all this begins to run together after a while. But I was not really very surprised to break the bolts, they were only 3/8ths inch. The ones that held the chain that wraps around the back upright were also 3/8ths so I removed them too. Also bent all to hell.

So I spent the rest of the evening reaming out the holes and dug up some 1/2" hardened bolts which also required that I cut my best old chain into short lengths so the the bolts went through the very ends because they were too big to fit between continuous links. I hated doing that because it pretty much ruined that chain for any other purpose. But some things just have to be sacrificed for noble causes, right? Actually, this was where I quit for the night. All this didn't go as quickly as it sounds.
I had to rediscover my Drill Doctor (don't even start) & sharpen a 1/2 inch bit, I miscut one of the chains & had to cut another, yada yada, so I did part of this Saturday evening and the rest on Sunday afternoon. And it is 2:26 am where I am sitting so I will continue into the next round later in the day - maybe. Dunno for sure; my mind is pretty numb right now.

posted by: 7018

Well cutter im getting really interested in this been wondering when we would see more on this vise! and im sure u'll get it working.cause the whole world is watching,maybe we can get it put on the world news!!


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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Having killed and eaten the insubordinate Klingon, I had Scottie beam me aboard the badly damaged Enterprise. I found First Officer Spock directing a crew of Sarilian slaves in repairing the forward photon torpedo bays. He estimated they would be battle ready within the hour. Proceeding to the bridge I noticed part of the crew missing so I demanded to know the whereabouts of Mr. Chekov. Sulu smiled, "Ah, you know Captain - the barrel." Sheesh, these guys get more & more difficult to deal with after a few months ...... Lt. Uhuru interrupted to tell me that those clowns at Travelocity said they still didn't want me back & I told her for the last time, "Get your finger out of your ear!" She's been this way ever since that last bridge Christmas Party. I never should have been at that damned thing to begin with .... "Message for you, Captain. It's Donald Trump, says to tell you 'You're fired!' They're going with the prissy bald guy."

POOF!

After a couple hours sleep I woke up thinking about the vise so I guess I may as well take the hint and finish this report to get it off my mind so I can go back to sleep.
Sunday afternoon I finally had the old Wilton lashed back onto the rail, all bolts replaced with the half-inchers and the ones holding the chains were those gold-toned 5mark hardened ones. I noticed that the backing disc was beginning to distort a little bit so I decided to position the jack down low and push against the bottom part of the slide since that is probably where the worst rust is located. I was hoping that might also spare the disc from further damage. I jacked the tension up until the chains were all tight enough to feel like solid bars.



I lit the torch and heated things up for maybe ten minutes, concentrating along the lower parts of both sides & winding up going all around the back end where I imagine the real problem is. When I had it radiating pretty good I used a Sharpie to mark a starting point on the ram then tossed the canvas cover back on it and started leaning into the cheater. This time I just kept at it, not bothering to pause to check on the jack, vise, chains or bolts. I had made up my mind to either break it loose, break another jack - whatever. It took about 5 minutes, I'd guess because this jack really does move in small increments. Then there was a loud snapping sound and it startled me into jumping backwards. Everything jumped - beam, jack, vise & all. Only the cheater pipe stayed in my hand.



I guess this ten dollar chinaman jack is ok. It snapped one of those 60cent bolts like it was a candy cane & bent the other one. The ram moved nearly an inch. And it nearly sheared the backing disc into a washer. I took ten pictures of that danged disc & for some reason, never did get a clear closeup, but you can get the idea, sort of. I guess.



As to the vise? It moved nary a fraction other than to jump up in the air & fall on its nose. Before all this activity I etched a mark just behind the slide. I took this picture after the tumbling act. No difference at all. However you can see where the disc began to wear into the inside margin of the slide. So I dunno what its gonna take but I do not think force alone is going to open this thing up.

[cutter]

Oh, by the way, the welds still held.

So I hauled the blue trash can out to the alley & dumped the nasty black glop out of it & started all over with nice clear water & washing soda - and a clean mower blade electrode. I had begun to wonder if I was still getting rust out of the vise or just out of the water or off the sediment on the bottom. And this time I turned the vise 180 degrees and dunked it face down to give the slide maybe a better chance to clean up. Besides, this seems to be the best place to store it between workouts

Suggestions? I'm wondering if about 8 hours baking in an oven at 500 degrees might do it but I'd like to hear Old Pilot's opinion on whether that would hurt anything. I have an old Frigidaire cookstove buried over at the barn that I could rig up to use. Need to throw it away anyhow. Or I'm thinking there will have to be some other kind of chemical dunk to penetrate between the parts.

What do you think?




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posted by: fla jim

Cutter;
Thanks for the birthday wish.
At the risk of irritating Franz. I don't think that the electrolsis will work to loosen the "vise" there's no clearance for material release between the jaw and body.
I would recommend heating the vise slightly to get all the moisture out of the vise. then Use "Kroil" . I'd place the vise nose down, apply some Kroil every day for about a month, to give it time for capillary action to get the kroil to penetrate completely through the vise. Also as a last resort I'd try drilling a hole through the side of the housing. tap it for 1/8 NPT, screw in a zerk grease fitting. Fill an old grease gun with some Kroil. and force it into the vise with pressure. again let it sit for a few weeks. then use heat and pressure. I've done this before, as a last resort, and it worked for me.


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posted by: 7018

Well shoot when i got the e-mail was hoping it was good news, sounds like fla jim mite has a good idea there,ooooooo and happy brithday jim!!


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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Nope Jim,

I don't think electrolysis can do much more good, either but I have to undo the rust and soot from all this torching anyway, and like I said, it has to be stored somewhere. I just checked back to page 2 & this process started on the 6th of March so it's been derusting most of the time for nearly 2 months.
You're right again, the tolerances between the "sleeve & cylinder" on these things is real close for castings. I doubt water even soaks all the way through. However, I don't know what Kroil is? Explain that to me, please?
About drilling a grease zerk into the side, I was thinking that perforating it in several places really wouldn't hurt anything other than the appearance & what the hell, its already so beat up and old that like myself, that's no longer an issue anyway. We're "through being beautiful", as my Dad said on his 75th birthday or thereabouts. I'm thinking that the worst of the problem is probably concentrated along that half inch keyway that runs through the very bottom so tapping in a pair of zerks on each side near the bottom on either side of the base would do the most good. This metal seems to be very malleable & not prone to cracking so I don't believe it would do any harm structurally.
And someday I would like to spend a little time on other projects again. This thing has been taking up nearly all of my time & energy since this all started.


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posted by: Mike W

I had a newer Wilton that was stuck from being outside on a truck. I finally got it unstuck by using a sledge and a short bar to hit on.


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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Yeah, that was a fantasy I had maybe a month ago, Mike. But there is no telling how many years this thing laid out in the weather before I stumbled across it. I think there is a lesson here: if you're going to leave one outside, keep the internal parts well greased and always leave the jaws open an inch or two so that you can use the screw to pull it inwards. The collar can only stand a limited amount of outward stress before it pops the retaining screwheads off, and warps the collar.


quote:
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Originally posted by Paychk
Cutter

I’m a believer in wedge technology now, if your jacks don’t work, maybe you could set up a wedge to push the vise apart.
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Paychk,

I've been forgetting to reply to your suggestion & I am familiar with "wedge technology" but more as applied in woodworking. The problem here is that there is nothing to "wedge against". This thing was designed to apply force, not to take it. Even if the jaws were open far enough to work with, I think it might snap the moving jaw off the slide before it pulled it out of the body.
Never the less, I enjoyed your story. Thanks.

And thanks again to all the rest of you who read and respond to this adventure. I can't even consider giving it up because of you; besides, I have my local reputation as a stubborn extremist nutcase to maintain.


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posted by: pjt

Realizing you have more experience on vice rehab than the rest of us, I've been wondering:
1) Have you smacked it with a sledgeo'matic while the hydraulic cylinder is putting a strain on it, and
2) Have you thought about leaving it under tension from the cylinder, say, over the weekend?

[cutter]

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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Thanks for the thoughts, pjt. But Yes and Yes. It has brand new scars from my hammering on it. Even brought an air chisel home and sawed one of the tips down blunt & tried to vibrate some life into it.
Got a stick of dynamite you'd like to contribute?


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posted by: Mike W

I read that one way to break loose a flywheel one a small engine is to take a air hammer with a pointed tool in it. You hold the flywheel and let the air chisel point bang on the end of the shaft. It is supposed to make the flywheel pop right off.

Perhaps you could do something similiar on a larger scale. You don't want to loose your stubborn nutcase status.

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posted by: fla jim

Cutter:
Here's the link to Kroil.
http://www.kanolaboratories.com/
It's a super good penetrant. I get it locally from the guy I get all my bullets,
powder and reloading supplies from. It makes a good rust preventive. The say it will penetrate one millionth of an inch.
You could drill and tap and install some zerk fittings in several places. I think
the key to using penetrant is "time" to let the stuff do it's work. I'd be patient, and let it soak for about a month, while filling the zerks every day. When you get it free, remove the zerks. Install some pipe plugs. Saw them off. Grind them flush to match the vise contour. when you paint it you'll never see where the holes were.


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posted by Cutter 05-01-2004

Paint it???? Paint it! Hmph.

I had thought of pipe plugs but you know, it wouldn't hurt a thing to be able to grease it once in a while.

Thanks for the link, dunno why I didn't think to do a search.


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posted by: pjt

Kroil wants to send you a free sample! Here's the address:
https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs....er_kroil.shtml


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posted by: stingers

As one buzzard said to the other buzzard “patience hell-let’s kill something.”

I doubt that any anti-cease, de-ruster is going to get between the parts. Get some charcoal-several bags and get it burning in a steel drum cut off to make a fire pot or build a wood fire in a pit until there is a bed of coals. Lower the vise by chains, movable (??) jaw up, into the coals and let the vise get red hot. Then hoist it up and smack the vise body with your big sledge.

Option 2; Drill the key out! Then try twisting the movable jaw and the vise while pushing with the jack.


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posted by Cutter 05-02-2004

Ummm,
The heat option might work; I've been thinking about something along that line. But drilling out the key? Bear in mind it is about a foot long. That's why I said the bottom is where it is stuck the worst - I think.


quote:
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Originally posted by Mike W
I read that one way to break loose a flywheel one a small engine is to take a air hammer with a pointed tool in it. You hold the flywheel and let the air chisel point bang on the end of the shaft. It is supposed to make the flywheel pop right off.

Perhaps you could do something similiar on a larger scale. You don't want to loose your stubborn nutcase status.

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Well, I can appreciate the sentiment but this vise doesn't have a tapered shaft in a matching aluminum flywheel. A sharp rap with a hammer does the same thing, but you could beat this thing to pieces before it popped apart.


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posted by: Franz

And, NOW, a word from our Sponsor; Uncle Franz's Products. I think the time has come for submerging in diesel fuel for a month or so.

Geez, I take the evening off to go check out Martina McBride, and you guys go nuts wantin to sledgomatic a poor vise. This thing didn't get stuck over night, and it ain't gonna get unstuck quick either.


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posted by: stingers

Hi Cutter;

I offered the drill the key out as a last resort kind of thing, as if the "red hot"
method isn't. There are drill bits long enough to do the job. The price of a few of those grade 8 bolts.

Where I worked they had a method of burning? broken taps or bolts out of parts when they broke off down in a part or die. I never saw how they did it, but know there is a way. I don't know how deep a hole it would work in. I don't know it that method could burn the key out. Can you see the front end of the key-way or is the movable jaw too close? If you could get the key removed, then there might be hope for a solvent to get to the bore.


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posted by: terry lingle

I will second the diesel fuel you can heat the vice up to about 250 -300 before submerging it that may help it penetrate . also set it in a hot location as raised temperatures will thin out the diesel and aid penitration. Terry


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posted by: Sirarcalot

I'm with Franz. Try the diesel fuel before drilling or heating.

I've heard that Kroil was good stuff.

I've also seen some amazing results from PB magnetic penetrating catalyst. I got it at Wall Mart. I've seen this stuff climb into threads rusty threads and loosen stuck bolts in a matter of seconds.

____Sirarcalot's signature_______________

MM175
Lincoln AC225 Tombstone


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posted by: rusted

Where did you get that again? I didn't catch it? Kmart?

Just joshin ya, I'll have to check that stuff out, sounds cool.


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posted by: Sirarcalot

Man Rusted, your fast. I didn't even get time to proof read it.


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posted by: rusted

I didn't notice, I just clicked the thread and it was there, didn't mean to be too fast. Sorry!

[cutter]

posted by: Sirarcalot

No problem, Rusted. I can't believe how this vise story is keeping my attention.

I'm telling all of my friends at work about this soap opera. And, of course none of them are interested. They just don't get it. Some people just don't appreciate a good story.


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posted by Cutter 05-02-2004

Clear the bridge. Just kidding, that was too much even for me.

Well guys,

I've been reading all your comments and thinking them over for an hour or two. I'll try to address them in one or two posts instead of one per post. Looks like we've got 5, maybe 6 types of "treatments" on the table:
1. heat
2. diesel
3. Kroil with or without zerks or PB Blaster
4. impact - tapping, hammering, sledging, beating it to death
5. pressure or a combination of all or several (such as heated diesel)

6. and Stinger's suggestion of drilling out the key, which I ain't gonna attempt to do because I am not equipped to drill it cleanly without ruining the slots it runs in. While I'm here - Stinger, the the key & keyway are not visible from the front through the main casting which gives me the impression that the key is fixed to the main casting. A look at the next to last picture (of the butt end of the vise) bears that out. Notice that the major portion of the slot is in the slide & the slot in the casting is just deep enough to serve as a positioning groove for the key. I also have an exploded view of a similar, later model Wilton that indicates the same thing. This is a bit curious because the baby 903 Wilton that I posted does have the key attached to the slide. Go figure. At any rate, drilling it is simply not a practical thing for me to do. I will show the exploded view below. Look at the complete circle at the front of the base.

I tend to favor diesel right now because of time considerations. I will be too busy during the next several days to screw with it very much and then be gone for a few days. It will be the weekend of May 15 & 16 before I can do any serious tinkering anyway. And I know where to get diesel as compared to probably having to order Kroil or at least run around town trying to buy some locally.
Furthermore, leaving it soaking in diesel requires no babysitting and prevents
additional rusting while I'm out of pocket.
By the way, Sirarcalot, I have a spray can of PB Blaster, bought it at NAPA, tried it for a few days but I really think its gonna take a minimum of a gallon of any kind of solvent; I could plug the front end, set it on its nose and fill the inside with Kroil or PB and just keep topping it off every day. But diesel is a lot cheaper and so much more accessible. If I do get into that, I do know that Kroil can be ordered in gallon sizes for about $22 plus shipping, I don't know about PB.

And I do like Jim's suggestion about the grease zerks.
As for as heating it goes, building a bonfire in my backyard sounds like more fun that it would really be, I'm afraid. I just hate being handcuffed & riding in a copcar - too much novelty. It wasn't even fun the first time. I'd rather use the old cookstove idea & even that would be a pain in the butt to arrange. However, I can do it if I have to. But not until later in the month.
Hammering doesn't seem to get any results at all. I think that's because we're dealing with 16 - 18 inches of a massive, rusted, tight fitting tube & sleeve here. And it dents easily; it was already scarred up pretty badly when I found it. Adding to it seems pretty pointless to me.
I think my homemade press will be called back into duty after a period of soaking and I will need a new backing disc to even do that. I guess I need to find some 1/2" plate to use for that because 1/4 inch just didn't hold up last weekend.

So from where I sit right now, the diesel soak looks like the most practical idea. A note about the cost of this kind of thing: with a few exceptions, keeping the cost way down just adds to the fun of a project like this. The idea of spending $200 - $300 in either materials or outside labor just defeats the concept as far as I am concerned. That's why I don't really enjoy those lame tv shows like American Chopper or American Hotrod very much - they don't even have to consider the expense of the custom parts or paint jobs. Where's the challenge & fun in that? Most of us have to give up something else when we do that, if we can afford to do it at all. So there again, diesel fits the bill mo' better. Now that pretty much defies what I did with that old Delta vertical bandsaw that I restored last fall & posted to the Hobart site, but that was one of those exceptions for me. And it is proving itself to be darned well worth the $300 or $400 I invested in it. The difference in the 2 projects is that there is really no other way to get a 1945 model metal cutting bandsaw unless you spend about 3 times as much for one somebody else has already refurbished. I already have other vises I can get by with. And when I do get this cranky old thing back into a useable state, it will be an real joy to use just because I poured so much care into it and all of you fellows were witnesses and collaborators to the deal.
Maybe that's why you keep coming back to see what's going on ; I have really wondered about that myself. At the present time there are 6515 page views of this thread & that just amazes me. I guess it strokes my ego but nevertheless, it is deeply gratifying to have somehow kept your sustained interest for 2 months now and I really do thank you for it. Someday, it will suddenly be done. I hope.