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  #21  
Old 09-28-2018, 09:47 AM
Nomoreusmc Nomoreusmc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmersamm View Post
By "straight up", I mean put your arc force on the overhead plate. The combination of gravity, and wrist flick, will cause it to flow against the vertical plate.

Hard to describe this shit in words.
Are you talking about whipping it back and forth like mig or more diagonal like a 6011?

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  #22  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:24 AM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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No, no whipping.

I should have put this up when I was trying to explain. I'm a moron.

Don't have really good camera equipment, but watch how the rod moves in relation to the puddle. It's a gentle push motion (I call it "oscillation" in the video which covers the side-to-side motion, and the pushing motion). You can definitely see it's not whipping.

https://youtu.be/qKx75IcjczM

One of the problems with whipping 7018, as everyone knows, is the possibility of slag inclusion.

That being said When filling a large gap, it is possible to whip this rod, but you better make damn sure you have a long dwell period when you go back into the semi solid puddle. It probably wouldn't pass x-ray, and shouldn't be done except in a pinch. I prefer building stringers to fill a gap, and do it on all stuff that matters.

An example: This pic is a weld on tubing, done in the horizontal position. I'm hanging the welds on the "wall" so to speak. I filled the gap with IIRC three passes instead of trying to do the buildup by whipping. More time involved, but a good solid weld when complete. You can see an "O" pattern in the bead. Another way to accomplish the same thing. But don't leave the face of the puddle. You're starting the "O" at the face of the puddle, and taking the circular motion back into the rear side of the puddle. Just make sure you don't intrude on the black line formed by the cooling slag. The reason you do this is to fill any undercut you're observing as you travel along. Overhead fillets, and horizontal groove welds, will always leave undercut, and you need to fill that undercut as you go.

When you whip, as you'd do with 5P, you're removing the arc from the puddle, then running it back into the puddle. It gives the puddle time to solidify. The puddle should always be liquid with 7018.

I think, now that you've switched to a rod you like, with better puddle visibility, you'll see the nuances.

There was a guy on WeldingWeb that I always admired for his stick skills. He was from Alaska.....I can't remember his handle. He committed suicide. Young kid. "Ak" something or other. That kid was a better welder than I ever was, or will ever be. You shoulda seen his stuff. Pure art.

Another fella that was good too. Great pipe welder. Remember one video he did concerning overhead structural welding. He used a straight drag with no manipulation. Beautiful looking, but no buildout. Very flat profile. Don't get stuck in that rut. You need to build a profile while fighting gravity.....you gotta move that rod. To get a good profile, you need to slow your travel (in order to deposit metal). Only way to do that is to allow the puddle to begin to drop in temperature....ie start to semi solidify. It's a fine line.


Everybody has a different method. I am definitely not the last word. Just trying to pass along my take on it. Other guys have a different take, and you'll develop your own methods that work. It all takes place in about 1/8-1/4 inch of travel....some crazy shit how we focus our attention on this tiny little area
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  #23  
Old 09-28-2018, 04:30 PM
Nomoreusmc Nomoreusmc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmersamm View Post
No, no whipping.

I should have put this up when I was trying to explain. I'm a moron.

Don't have really good camera equipment, but watch how the rod moves in relation to the puddle. It's a gentle push motion (I call it "oscillation" in the video which covers the side-to-side motion, and the pushing motion). You can definitely see it's not whipping.

https://youtu.be/qKx75IcjczM

One of the problems with whipping 7018, as everyone knows, is the possibility of slag inclusion.

That being said When filling a large gap, it is possible to whip this rod, but you better make damn sure you have a long dwell period when you go back into the semi solid puddle. It probably wouldn't pass x-ray, and shouldn't be done except in a pinch. I prefer building stringers to fill a gap, and do it on all stuff that matters.

An example: This pic is a weld on tubing, done in the horizontal position. I'm hanging the welds on the "wall" so to speak. I filled the gap with IIRC three passes instead of trying to do the buildup by whipping. More time involved, but a good solid weld when complete. You can see an "O" pattern in the bead. Another way to accomplish the same thing. But don't leave the face of the puddle. You're starting the "O" at the face of the puddle, and taking the circular motion back into the rear side of the puddle. Just make sure you don't intrude on the black line formed by the cooling slag. The reason you do this is to fill any undercut you're observing as you travel along. Overhead fillets, and horizontal groove welds, will always leave undercut, and you need to fill that undercut as you go.

When you whip, as you'd do with 5P, you're removing the arc from the puddle, then running it back into the puddle. It gives the puddle time to solidify. The puddle should always be liquid with 7018.

I think, now that you've switched to a rod you like, with better puddle visibility, you'll see the nuances.

There was a guy on WeldingWeb that I always admired for his stick skills. He was from Alaska.....I can't remember his handle. He committed suicide. Young kid. "Ak" something or other. That kid was a better welder than I ever was, or will ever be. You shoulda seen his stuff. Pure art.

Another fella that was good too. Great pipe welder. Remember one video he did concerning overhead structural welding. He used a straight drag with no manipulation. Beautiful looking, but no buildout. Very flat profile. Don't get stuck in that rut. You need to build a profile while fighting gravity.....you gotta move that rod. To get a good profile, you need to slow your travel (in order to deposit metal). Only way to do that is to allow the puddle to begin to drop in temperature....ie start to semi solidify. It's a fine line.


Everybody has a different method. I am definitely not the last word. Just trying to pass along my take on it. Other guys have a different take, and you'll develop your own methods that work. It all takes place in about 1/8-1/4 inch of travel....some crazy shit how we focus our attention on this tiny little area
Ok now I see what you meant. Almost a mini weave but you stop in the middle. I have always done overhead like I do flat. I will give this a try. I am always up for learning something new.

I also looked at your flame straightening video, very cool what kind of camera do you have?

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  #24  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:29 PM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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The welding vids were done with camera glasses. Lens in the middle of the bridge (I think they call it).

If you're talking about the tubing straightening, that was just a simple Cannon FinePix on a tripod.

I found this kids old videos.

For some reason I can't insert a link to his video

YouTube/AKweldshop/building gold mining equipment......this search will bring it up.

Nice kid, damn shame. Never could understand suicide at such a young age.
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:36 PM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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https://youtu.be/xlF8KYMs13E

THERE, I GOT IT. Was something with my browser I guess. Anyways......enjoy!!
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  #26  
Old 09-29-2018, 02:46 AM
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Sam...…
Do yo think its not the clamp its self but a change in the amount of gases being more concentrated once you start to get between the material and the clamp
more of situation confining the gases instead of allowing them to spread out as it could be keeping an oxygen rich environment instead of allowing it to surround the puddle, as it's the gases from the flux that keeps it depleted of oxygen....

I'm a bit tired but I think you may get what I'm saying
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  #27  
Old 09-30-2018, 01:03 AM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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I guess you're talking about the arc blow?

I'm thinking it was the geometry of the clamp.

Arc blow is some funny stuff. It's sometimes hard to predict.

You WILL generally get blow when you reach the end of a joint that terminates in the "air" (no steel beyond where you stop welding).

Welding towards the work clamp, welding towards an inside corner, welding inside small width channel, and a few more I can't remember.

They say it increases with rod size, and the increased amperage it takes to run that larger rod...……..but I can get some real nasty arc blow going with 3/32 running at 85amps. Although, it gets absolutely awesome when running 5/32 at 175-180amps, so maybe they're right.

If there's one great thing about wire welding......it's virtually no arc blow. So maybe we're coming back to the small electrode thing I just mentioned.

If I could run AC all the time, I would. No arc blow. But when welding out of position, I simply can't run that stuff good enough to make a nice weld. Some guys can I guess. I damn sure can't.

Speaking of being tired...I wish I were. Can't sleep tonite Seems to happen more and more the older I get
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  #28  
Old 09-30-2018, 01:23 AM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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I mean Hell, look at this crap

I got metal blowing everywhere near the end of these multi pass welds. I'm running at about 175amps with 5/32 rod. A real mess. You can literally go through 2 inches of rod trying to fill in the hole you're digging. Have to really fight it to make it turn out right.

You can beat that crap if you weld in from both sides, but I don't like having 2 cold starts on one weld.
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  #29  
Old 09-30-2018, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmersamm View Post
I guess you're talking about the arc blow?

I'm thinking it was the geometry of the clamp.

Arc blow is some funny stuff. It's sometimes hard to predict.

You WILL generally get blow when you reach the end of a joint that terminates in the "air" (no steel beyond where you stop welding).

Welding towards the work clamp, welding towards an inside corner, welding inside small width channel, and a few more I can't remember.

They say it increases with rod size, and the increased amperage it takes to run that larger rod...……..but I can get some real nasty arc blow going with 3/32 running at 85amps. Although, it gets absolutely awesome when running 5/32 at 175-180amps, so maybe they're right.

If there's one great thing about wire welding......it's virtually no arc blow. So maybe we're coming back to the small electrode thing I just mentioned.

If I could run AC all the time, I would. No arc blow. But when welding out of position, I simply can't run that stuff good enough to make a nice weld. Some guys can I guess. I damn sure can't.

Speaking of being tired...I wish I were. Can't sleep tonite Seems to happen more and more the older I get
mostly tired been pushing my self nd have issues sleeping anyway so i get sleep where and when I can.

but yes arc blow is what I was referring to just couldn't think of it at the time brain has some slow moments in memory at time especially when I've gone with out proper amount of sleep....

but sometimes it just cause I cant think of the technical terms mostly...
Had a buddy the other day using flux core wire but trying to use his gas nozzle and he couldn't get the slightest decent weld out of it told him the nozzle is only intended for MIG using gas so take off the nozzle and see how it improves your weld he was like calling me back and asking why i didn't tell him about this before but well hell he never asked and I've never known him to use flux core but he's getting lazy now and don't want to mess with bottles but I told him the trade off in my opinion is now he has more prep and clean up now over MIG v's Flux core

any way I told him that is why they sell flux core nozzles which is only to protect the threads and tips..... for a smart guy he weren't to smart for someone whos been welding most his life and half it using MIG
not that I care for flux core in a wire machine but I guess like all prosses it has it's place I do how ever have a miller 140 I use for running flux core wire only... but rarely ever use it..
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  #30  
Old 09-30-2018, 01:37 AM
Farmersamm Farmersamm is offline
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Wish I had a dedicated flux gun. I always just take the diffuser off, like you said. But the damn dingle berries get all over the gas ports in the end of the nozzle. PITA. I need to make something to protect the doggone thing when there's no gas thingy on it.

My favorite is doing a lot of flux core on something on the welding table All the spatter acts like ball bearings on the table surface. Crap's always sliding around unless you sweep the mess off every once in a while.
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