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  #21  
Old 10-13-2013, 01:38 PM
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LW Hiway LW Hiway is offline
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I would LOVE, ABSOLUTELY LOVE to pay to have this done. But nobody will touch a firearm (in this way). I've been working on this project for nearly two years. I've called dozens of machinists, smiths, everyone. Nobody will touch it. Most don't even return my calls or my emails, not even so much as a "get lost nerd" A couple have responded, and most of those said NO. (Alot of people think that because they clean antique firearms that they are gunsmiths, o' contrare)
If you know what your major Al spec is, you can find the appropriate filler material by just asking your LWS.

It's obvious that if your wanting any one here to 'buy into' what your wanting to do, it may not happen.

With all of the gun forums out there I'm questioning why you would pose your question here and not on one of them.

BTW, it may just be one of us 'antique cleaning firearm gunsmiths' that saves some newbe from blowing his ass up.

I'm not wanting to have you feeling unwanted or somehow less than stellar in what your wanting to do, but it might be appreciated by the masses here to go another route to bear fruit in your undertaking.

FWIW, if this was one of my springers, pumps or PCP pistols, I'd do it myself in a skinny minute. As it is, there is just too much liability for anyone to consider doing this. Hell, I'd feel bad just suggesting how to go about it.

As an inside mention, several years ago a friend(loosely used today) asked me to put together a cut apart bunch of pieces of a European hand held machine gun. He's a self-professed collector. After getting assurances from him that it was only to be for display purposes only and having him actually sign a piece of paper with a witness to that fact, the job was done. It looked in all like an operational machine pistol.

A month later I find out he's getting sears, springs, firing pins and auto action parts to fire the thing. I called my attorney who called him and the local PoPo to cease. It has once again been turned into tiny pieces.

I had a problem with someone firing a gun that had three pieces of the barrel put back together with TIG welding and ground to finish. But again, I'm the asshole.
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  #22  
Old 10-13-2013, 01:41 PM
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Sally is on vacation - can I help?
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  #23  
Old 10-13-2013, 02:06 PM
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GOOD Research POP..!!

Aside from the legal and liability issues...

if that frame is indeed made of 7075... instead of 6061

Best not even try to braze or weld it...

http://www.alcobrametals.com/guide.php?metal=1#7075

This is what ESAB has to say about it..

How Do I Weld 2024 and 7075?

Q - I come into contact with two aluminum alloys of which I have found difficulty in obtaining information about arc welding. These alloys are 2024 and 7075. Can you provide me with information on how to weld these alloys with either the GMAW or GTAW process?

A –The reason you are having difficulty finding information on welding 2024 and 7075 is that both of these materials belong to a small group of aluminum alloys that are generally considered as being unweldable by the arc welding process. These materials are often found on aircraft, sporting equipment and other types of high-performance, safety-critical equipment and are not usually arc welded on the original component. Probably, the two most commonly found aluminum alloys within this category are 2024, which is an aluminum, copper, magnesium alloy, and 7075, which is an aluminum, zinc, copper, magnesium alloy. Both of these materials can become susceptible to stress corrosion cracking after welding. This phenomenon is particularly dangerous because it is not detectable immediately after welding, and usually develops at a later date when the component is in service. The completed weld joint can appear to be of excellent quality immediately after welding. However, changes which occur within the base material adjacent to the weld during the welding process, can produce a metallurgical condition within these materials which can result in intergranular micro cracking, which may be susceptible to propagation and eventual failure of the welded component. The probability of failure can be high, and the time to failure is generally unpredictable and dependent on variables such as tensile stress applied to the joint, environmental conditions, and the period of time which the component is subjected to these variables.

It is strongly recommended that great care be taken when considering the repair of components made from these materials. It must be stressed that if there is any possibility of a weld failure becoming the cause of damage or injury to person or property, do not perform repair work by arc welding on these alloys and then return them to service.


http://www.esabna.com/us/en/educatio...4-and-7075.cfm
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Last edited by H80N; 10-13-2013 at 02:13 PM.
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:05 PM
Dr Page Dr Page is offline
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Originally Posted by H80N View Post
what is the fixation on brazing it...??
No fixation. Just following what I was told I should do by another expert, because that's how HE did it.

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Why not listen to possible ways to accomplish the task? And the pros and cons of the available avenues??
This is exactly why I'm here !!

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Y'all are making this too hard. Cut off the old tail. Tap a hole for a stud in the frame, cut new piece and screw it on there in place. File and finish to fit. Use loctite.


As far as the anodizing on the frame, if it is anodized anything you do to the material will harm it. If it's just blackened aluminum, then it's just a chemical dirtying-up and the metal is already degraded on the surface. In either case, brazing or welding, it's my understanding that you'll need to get it all back down to bare metal in the working area anyway before you can expect much success.
I actually came to this same conclusion on my own a few months ago. Everyone says "Don't weld" So I said ok, I'll solve this without welding. But then I found the original machinist who says braze.

Quote:
You are not seeing the big picture.

Without setting it up on a surface plate and measuring all the dimensions you are not likely going to tell if you warped the frame.
you have no way of knowing if you changed the integrity of the material.

The Safety issue is not as much while you are doing the job, unless you burn down the house, its when you fire the gun it may come-up with feed problems, the frame may eventually develop stress cracks.

At some time the gun may blowup in your hand or a miss feed and blowup in your face.
If the back of the frame comes a-part its going to sort of backfire and if you are lucky just blow your hand off.
I'm not trying to be difficult, seriously. But I do not understand how modifying a tiny fraction of the gun, away from any mechanism, is going to affect the function. Isn't that like saying melting the rear bumper off my truck will keep the engine from starting? The stress cracks I can understand. But I refuse to believe, that in any way, shape, or form, that this tiny bit of modification is going to cause a feed issue. Did you even look at the example photographs I posted, showing exactly where the work is to be done, away from the moving parts?

Quote:
With all of the gun forums out there I'm questioning why you would pose your question here and not on one of them.
Been there, done that. Like I said, I've brainstormed and search for well over a year. I've been to pistol forums. It's the same "get lost" attitude. I felt that maybe they were just being uncreative. If I've got a chip on my shoulder, it's only because of a year of people treating me like project is worth less than anyone else's. I've learned to be a little defensive going into any new place because brace yourselves, the attacks will come.

Quote:
It's obvious that if your wanting any one here to 'buy into' what your wanting to do, it may not happen.
Then you misinterpret my reason for being here. I don't need anyone to "buy into" what I'm doing. I just need someone to tell me the best way to do it, even if its punctuated with 'but you're a dumbass for trying.'

Quote:
I had a problem with someone firing a gun that had three pieces of the barrel put back together with TIG welding and ground to finish. But again, I'm the asshole.
No, you're dead wrong. You're not the asshole. You were right to be wary of the machine gun, and you SHOULD have had a problem with someone firing a gun with a barrel that has been put back together. That's the barrel of the gun. One of the most important functional elements of the gun. And that is 180 degrees completely from what I'm asking.

Unfortunately most of my reply is me having to defend my position because too many took my 'sally' comment personally. I appreciate the comments, I really do. I didn't expect such a turnout.
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  #25  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:15 PM
Dr Page Dr Page is offline
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Originally Posted by H80N View Post
How Do I Weld 2024 and 7075?

Q - I come into contact with two aluminum alloys of which I have found difficulty in obtaining information about arc welding. These alloys are 2024 and 7075. Can you provide me with information on how to weld these alloys with either the GMAW or GTAW process?

A –The reason you are having difficulty finding information on welding 2024 and 7075 is that both of these materials belong to a small group of aluminum alloys that are generally considered as being unweldable by the arc welding process. These materials are often found on aircraft, sporting equipment and other types of high-performance, safety-critical equipment and are not usually arc welded on the original component. Probably, the two most commonly found aluminum alloys within this category are 2024, which is an aluminum, copper, magnesium alloy, and 7075, which is an aluminum, zinc, copper, magnesium alloy. Both of these materials can become susceptible to stress corrosion cracking after welding. This phenomenon is particularly dangerous because it is not detectable immediately after welding, and usually develops at a later date when the component is in service. The completed weld joint can appear to be of excellent quality immediately after welding. However, changes which occur within the base material adjacent to the weld during the welding process, can produce a metallurgical condition within these materials which can result in intergranular micro cracking, which may be susceptible to propagation and eventual failure of the welded component. The probability of failure can be high, and the time to failure is generally unpredictable and dependent on variables such as tensile stress applied to the joint, environmental conditions, and the period of time which the component is subjected to these variables.

It is strongly recommended that great care be taken when considering the repair of components made from these materials. It must be stressed that if there is any possibility of a weld failure becoming the cause of damage or injury to person or property, do not perform repair work by arc welding on these alloys and then return them to service.


http://www.esabna.com/us/en/educatio...4-and-7075.cfm
So welding is out. It's been a long time since I even considered welding it. That is one reason brazing seemed so attractive. It's NOT welding, and I don't need to attend a school to learn how to do it. But it's similar, so I'm getting the vibe that it's not different enough to escape the same problems?
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  #26  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:20 PM
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LW Hiway LW Hiway is offline
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D'Page, take your piece to/find an NDI Lab (non-destructive inspection). You can find them listed in the yellow pages.

They can make a few small tests to give you a close relationship to it's alloy and hardness without destroying your frame.
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  #27  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:29 PM
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As I explain the two procedures to my Welding I students, welding is like mixing the eggs, cake mix and other ingredients all together. Once done correctly, you cannot bring out the egg or any one of the other individual ingredients as they are completely mixed together. Brazing is like icing the cake, it lays ontop and can be ground off or scraped off of the cake. What the members are trying to point out to you, heat, when metal changes temps it expands or contracts. You are still adding heat and causing the metal to change its internal chemical structure. If it returns to itself is dependent on many things that are not under your control or able to be seen with the naked eye. Good luck.
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  #28  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:29 PM
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Good idea. I didn't even know such places existed for just regular people.
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  #29  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JWS View Post
As I explain the two procedures to my Welding I students, welding is like mixing the eggs, cake mix and other ingredients all together. Once done correctly, you cannot bring out the egg or any one of the other individual ingredients as they are completely mixed together. Brazing is like icing the cake, it lays ontop and can be ground off or scraped off of the cake. What the members are trying to point out to you, heat, when metal changes temps it expands or contracts. You are still adding heat and causing the metal to change its internal chemical structure. If it returns to itself is dependent on many things that are not under your control or able to be seen with the naked eye. Good luck.
This makes more sense in my mind now
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  #30  
Old 10-13-2013, 06:33 PM
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LW Hiway LW Hiway is offline
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I didn't even know such places existed for just regular people.
They take walkin's as well as would be willing to show up to your house, with the appropriate material and labor quote on the invoice.
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Quoting "The Hunt". "A man will walk into hell with both eyes and arms wide open. His dog will know better."

I never thought I'd live long enough to become a grumpy old bastard. Here I am, killing it!
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