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Old 09-16-2018, 03:18 PM
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Walker Walker is offline
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Default Water well bailing/drilling

I just installed a new float switch and contactor on my sub pump in order to fix voltage issues from the new pump and pump saver that was installed when I contracted out my pump replacement. This fixed all the power issues, but didnt fix the intrinsic problem with the well, which is that the water table is going down. That problem will solve itself in about a month as the weather changes and the water table rises for the winter, but will come back next summer.

I am going to need to bail out my well down to 485' from where the pump sits at 385' why it wasnt set at the bottom is up for debate. The 1 hp pump should be able to handle the additional depth without issue. It was likely a cheap out thing with the original installer, and it worked for 20 years.
The current pump depth is 385', the extra 100' would give me an extra 260 gallons of water to pump, which is roughly what my tank needs to fill when the float drops.

I would like to build a 4 post A frame derrick to be able to trip the pipe and do my own bailing. This is more an educational experiment, as I would like to drill my own well at my cabin (less than 100'). This would allow me to get my feet wet, so to speak. I have plenty of experience building things, but I lack the experience in drilling a well. If the bailing experiment pans out I will need additional help moving to the drilling end of it. I would like to build a cable tool rig onto whatever I build for the bailing. I have seen a few rigs like this, which generally convert to a trailer. These generally have a motor driving an eccentric which moves a walking beam (or half of one really) to make the cable move up and down.

So, does anyone have experience building a derrick, or bailing a well. I could use advice as to what I need to do, and what tooling I would need, as well as its use. I have read what I can find on the web, but it is a wee bit lacking. As far as the derrick, I could probably wing it and do okay, as I have built several gantries, and small cranes. I am a little in the dark as far as the winches used though, as well as the bailer itself.

Thanks, and as always, any advice is appreciated.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:20 PM
kbs2244 kbs2244 is offline
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I am confused on your wording.

In my experience the term “bailing” is used to find out the recovery rate of a well at a drilled depth. It is a measuring procedure.

It sounds like you already know that and just want to lower your pump deeper into your already drilled well?

If that is the case, it is a relatively simple mechanical procedure.
Build a tripod, pull the existing pipe and pump up, add more pipe and re-lower the pump.
A good installer will have hooked the pump to a poly rope so it can be pulled even if the pipe breaks for some reason.

You will need to add on to this rope as well as the pipe.

And you will learn why they have switched to poly pipe from iron.

This may be a good time to replace the pump if you have ant questions about it.
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:16 PM
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If you look how a baler is made, you see the bonker on the bottom
and the foot valve up inside.

Can be used to remove mud and such from the well.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:08 PM
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Lu47Dan Lu47Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
If you look how a baler is made, you see the bonker on the bottom
and the foot valve up inside.

Can be used to remove mud and such from the well.
Doug, the "bonker" is called the "dart".
kbs, anytime you run the bailer into the well, you are bailing the well. Whether you are removing mud and cuttings or bailing the well down to determine flow.
Walker, to be efficient at that depth, the bailer would have to fly up and down the well.
I am assuming you have an 8" well. So 2.5gallons a foot would be about right. I would not set the pump down all thr way, as you are mostly in a rock hole. Rocks can and do shed from the wall of the well. Even in a fully cased gravel well we never set the pump all the way down to the bottom.
To bail an 8" well you can use a 6" bailer. Remember that the bailer accelerates down the hole and when it hits the water it can throw a loop of cable. More than one driller has been killed or maimed by that happening.
I worked around my friends rig for many weeks and was still watchful of that cable.
Dan

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Old 09-18-2018, 07:55 AM
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I've used a couple styles of bailers on cable.

Not all are built with a dart style valve on the bottom. Some have a simple ring on the base. Those have to be emptied by pouring out the top opening. Some specialty bailers have a glass plate at the bottom so material can be dumped in certain places in the well, or so the bailer can be run in empty and filled by breaking the glass. If available, a blasting cap is sometimes run taped to the glass so it is not necessary to bump the bailer to break the glass.

The basic bailer is simply a length of pipe with a check valve on the bottom. The simplest of those is a flapper valve. Typically a bailer will have a loop at the top to tie the cable onto. Some have more sophisticated rope sockets that anchor the line by wedges or a knot secured with Babbitt.

Hint.... if you decide to build a bailer with a top loop, weld the loop on the inside of the pipe to prevent it from snagging in the well.

As Mentioned above, the bailer will nearly stop when it hits fluid. In freefall and most circumstances, the bailer or bit will pull the line. If the bailer stops, the line will try to keep moving as well as the winch drum at surface will keep spinning. You have to be careful not to let too much slack form in the line at this point to prevent kinks and loops forming in the well and at surface. Sometimes, the kinks and loops do not straighten out again when the load comes back on the line and the line can kink or break. Fishing cable is a time consuming and nasty business.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:40 AM
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Lu47Dan Lu47Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camdigger View Post
I've used a couple styles of bailers on cable.

Not all are built with a dart style valve on the bottom. Some have a simple ring on the base. Those have to be emptied by pouring out the top opening. Some specialty bailers have a glass plate at the bottom so material can be dumped in certain places in the well, or so the bailer can be run in empty and filled by breaking the glass. If available, a blasting cap is sometimes run taped to the glass so it is not necessary to bump the bailer to break the glass.

The basic bailer is simply a length of pipe with a check valve on the bottom. The simplest of those is a flapper valve. Typically a bailer will have a loop at the top to tie the cable onto. Some have more sophisticated rope sockets that anchor the line by wedges or a knot secured with Babbitt.

Hint.... if you decide to build a bailer with a top loop, weld the loop on the inside of the pipe to prevent it from snagging in the well.

As Mentioned above, the bailer will nearly stop when it hits fluid. In freefall and most circumstances, the bailer or bit will pull the line. If the bailer stops, the line will try to keep moving as well as the winch drum at surface will keep spinning. You have to be careful not to let too much slack form in the line at this point to prevent kinks and loops forming in the well and at surface. Sometimes, the kinks and loops do not straighten out again when the load comes back on the line and the line can kink or break. Fishing cable is a time consuming and nasty business.
Cam, you listed them pretty good. The one you described as having a flap on the bottom and has to be dumped is a suction bailer. It has a full length rod with a loose fitting piston on the bottom end. The top end of the rod runs through an eye in the swivel joint. The very end of the rod is hoop or loop the cable attaches to.
In use you run the bailer down the well to the bottom. Let the piston settle into the bottom of the bailer. With the speed up higher than normal on the main shaft, you pump the piston up and down until the bailer is full. Then you trip the bailer out of well, align the notch in the side of the bailer away from the rig, set the end on a board and push the body of the bailer away from the rig while letting out cable. The notch in the side of the bailer allows the piston to swing out of the bore and the bailer to fold in half (almost). Then with the Bull line or with just your muscles you upend the bailer to empty it out.
I much prefer the former to the latter.
Dan.

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  #7  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lu47Dan View Post
Doug, the "bonker" is called the "dart".

When your helping your friend bail a well, and he
brings it up a wee bit fast, and your job is to swing it over
to the drain bucket....and you hit your head on it.....
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:56 AM
BukitCase BukitCase is offline
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"Bonker" is a Muuuucchhhh nicer word that I woulda used - ...Steve
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BukitCase View Post
"Bonker" is a Muuuucchhhh nicer word that I woulda used - ...Steve
It's the noise I heard inside....

A right proper "wonker" then eh?
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:17 PM
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Well, lots of info here. I have been asking around and have heard from a drilled that to set the pump below the perforations in the casing would cause the pump to overheat unless I installed a special shroud. My pump is set at the bottom of 100' of perf according to the drillers report. So the only thing I would be gaining is extra storage. While this would be nice, I don't know that it is worth the effort. I have my pump timer set for the refill time now, so I am getting the maximum amount of water per pumping cycle.

Also, I had to refill my storage tank from another well. After it was full I ran the hose down into my well for several hours and then dumped a load of air into it from my compressor in some feeble attempt to clean out any plugged perforations in the casing. My well has been keeping up ever since. That might mean it would behoove me to have my casing pressure cleaned.

The other thing I am looking into is installing meter on the header to identify where all the damn water is going.

I am still planning on drilling my own well up at my place in the mountains, so I will still build the a frame.
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