Plasma Cutter & Plasma/AC-DC TIG/Stick (Inverter Design = Magic!)

[DivTec]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarrior

Not saying you don't know about electronics. Hell, I took three years of it and what knowledge I retained allows me to build small circuits for various things.



Orient does not mean China. Japan probably makes the best electronic components from what I've seen. The only way you're going to get "good" quality out of a chinese factory is do like Jet does for their equipment in Taiwan, spec the entire piece from ground up, contract them to make it and have quality reps at the factory.

Still, the best solution would be to have them made here so you can employ Americans. I understand they'd cost more, but for equipment like that a lot of people are willing to shell out for quality and American made and you'd be helping to build our economy.



I'm not a welder either, you probably have more experience welding than I do. I have no doubt your machine will weld, hell even the Harbor Freight cheapo boxes will weld, but there's more to it than that. Like I said, if something fails on the machine, or I need a spare part or parts (like feed rollers, or tips, or whatever, I can go to my local welding supply place and pick it up in 15 minutes. If it needs warranty work I can drop it off in 15 minutes with no shipping a 40lb machine to God knows where. Lastly there is the reliability issue. Most of the Chinese machines don't have a good track record in that regard.



$999



Yes, I watched them. Your machine does what every other 200 amp welder and 50 amp plasma cutter does. The only thing on your machine is the AC/DC as most multi machines are DC only or don't also have a plasma cutter. That's why I suggested you also add wirefeed for MIG and FC. I think you'll find the majority of home welders and fabricators mostly use MIG, FC or stick. Custom shops would have good use for TIG too, especially AC/DC.



Flux Core (gasless wirefeed).



No, I understand inverters and transformers, but even inverters get hot, otherwise you wouldn't have a 60% cycle at 100% power. There is no such thing as 100% efficiency.



See above.



85-87% efficiency is not 100% efficiency, so where do that 13-15% loss go? Heat.



My 210 MP is rated at 14.7amp draw at 100% output (220amps) on 230v.



Voltage drop for any given wire gauge depends on several things, is it solid or stranded, copper or aluminum, single or three phase power, the load, and it varies with temp too.

I'm well aware of Ohm's law and the math to calculate this, but like anything involving wiring, it's never a good idea to go with the minimum.



The fact is, Chinese made stuff is inferior. I won't buy one. That's the facts. Chinese are not the only ones making multi-process machines. NO ONE makes a "true" multi-process that does it all, every one is a certain combination of things, always missing something else.



What challenge is it that you want? That our machines can weld? The max capacity? My machine doesn't have a plasma cutter, so there is nothing to compare there, but I don't have to have a plasma cutter, I have saws and cut-off wheels. Then again I can MIG and FC with mine and yours can't. Yours can AC TIG, but I can use a spool gun and MIG aluminum. You have two ideas going for your machine: It has a plasma cutter and AC capability. I'm telling you, if you want the "ultimate" in multi-process, add the wirefeed/MIG/FC capability and you'd have a "fabrication shop in a box". Every multi-process machine on the market right now is always a combination of a few capabilities, but missing others and in my opinion the missing capabilities are the ones that make the most sense. Your machine, for example, has a plasma cutter, I agree, super handy to have, but it doesn't MIG or FC, which is arguably the most widely used welding method today. Yours has AC/DC TIG, but mine at least does DC TIG. I'd be willing to bet that there is more use or need for MIG than AC TIG of aluminum, except in fabrication shops doing that sort of work.

Oh.. too many words... to many unsubstantiated opinions... I give up... you win.

[WeekendWarrior]

Originally Posted by DivTec

Oh.. too many words... to many unsubstantiated opinions... I give up... you win.

Oh really? As if YOUR posts haven't been long winded?

Forgive me for responding to each of your statements.

Whatever, buh-bye, not buying your snake oil.

[Scott V]

Originally Posted by platypus20

somewhere here I posted a picture of a Chinese plasma cutter that burst into flames the first time it was plugged in.

I like Video better..

https://youtu.be/6CpYFTThitw

[RancherBill]

Originally Posted by DivTec

So... one should NEVER buy a Chinese machine from a general merchant. They do not have the ability to solidate (not sure if there is such a word but, I like it) the build before selling. Also we add our own technical embellishments.

That does not inspire confidence.

Fixing and upgrading new product from the factory is beyond comprehension. I understand these are built for a price point, but if all you can build for the price is junk then the business model is flawed.

I can buy a cheap car or an expensive car and you can have a reasonable expectation it will work for years. The only cars that didn't do that are Yugos. It sounds like your equip are Yugos.

[SmokinDodge]

Originally Posted by DivTec

SmokinDodge to be clear... oh, yes I will make one available for you guys to evaluate at your late May meeting. I'll be GLAD for you guys to test the hell out of my machine, as long as your evaluation is honest, without bias. Hopeuflly, if there is enough of you guys evaluating it you may be able to keep each other honest. I'm really quite surprised that some of you guys are not excited about... and actually seem pissed at... me offering a machine with great performance at a price that others (your friends) could afford. What's that about? It must be some "human" condition. Actually I think ShadTree original suggestion of evaluating my machine at your meeting in late May is a good one. Realize I do not know the details of your meeting and most likely won't need too if you don't want to tell me. Since there would be a significant number of people to evaluate it, each could contribute to the cost of the machine. When the evaluation is over I would provide full refund unless someone decides to keep it. We could use PayPal to handle the funding. I really am interested in you guys evaluating my machine and reporting back comments and suggestions. I viewed a great youtube video about the SA 200 (DC Stick and Voltage Controlled Wire Feed) that SmokinDodge has.

Hell yes I'll test the hell out it. I don't have anything to gain or loose by its performance and like most that will be at the gathering I have my own opinion and I'm not scared to share it. If it works great I'll say so. If it's a gigantic pile I'll say so.

For clarity the welding machine in that link is NOT mine and I do not appear in the video. My machine is full copper wound round barrel without all those Nancy accessories like, for example, electric start.

As for the pissed part once a week some jackleg rolls in here with the next best thing or link to his website so part of its a thick hide that has developed and a lot of it is old grumpy bastards that don't like anything.

Sent from my ipotato

[platypus20]

Originally Posted by DivTec

But, that is where we come in. Every machine we import goes through a procedure that you could call product build corrections or something like that. This happens to every machine before we ship it out to customers.


Actually, those that want security I can extend that warranty to anything they want for a hell of allot less than the costs mentioned above.

www.parkermetalworking.com
480-983-6030
parkermetalworking@yahoo.com

Yeah, if you say so, but Everlast and Longevity, both say the same thing, yet the failure rate is in the 40-50%, based on personal experience and from reading other welding sites. As a product, that has to be rebuilt, right out of the box, to me is a POS.

Again you failed to understand, phone tech support is BS, I'm an industrial boiler service technician, I'm not a electronic technician. I have no desire to change capacitors, transistors, diodes or whatnot, I want the unit to be like a Bic pen, first time-everytime. I want a welder service technician, to fix my welders or plasma cutters, which in 40+ years has been exactly 2 welders.

At your pricing your clearly aimed at the home-shop section of the market, where the lure of a $1500 wonder machine, has an appeal. Where they have to scrimp and save to get the machine, then a failure is a huge blow to their checkbook.

I've been in the industrial side of the market, I've yet to see any of the Chinese equipment, on a jobsite. About 15-20 years ago the inverters, swept the industry, yet most of the equipment I've seen lately is moving back to the big transformer machines, like Lincoln IdealArcs and Miller DialArcs. As they are almost bullet proof, hard to kill.

Again, as I originally said, all-in-ones, are nothing I want, because they do many things, but rarely do they do anything well. Its like the lathe/milling machine/drill press, sold by some equipment manufacturers, it does work, but has severe limits in each mode and is a PITA to work with.

I bought Hypertherm plasma cutters over the years, I can buy consumables from almost every LWS, they are built like a tank and I've never had a operational issue, with any of them. I've own TDs, Esabs, Lincoln, Miller and a few other, plasma cutters, and have always returned to Hypertherm.

I would also worry about durability, I have a Hypertherm PM 45 and one of following welders, a Miller Maxstar 200 DX, a Miller CST280 or a Lincoln Invertec V-275S (depending on available voltages), in the truck at all times, the pounding of 40,000 miles a year, from -20 degrees to a 105 degree boiler room, and they flat out work everytime.

You openly admit the build quality is bad, yet are touting the machine as magic. Huge globs of silicone to hold pieces in place is not build quality, thats 8th grade shop class quality. The electrical design of the machine may be good, but the build quality or lack there of, is the down fall of these machines.

Maybe I'm different from some of the others, I make a living with my equipment, a dead unit is not an option. The work has to get done, there and now, to make money.

I buy multiple items from Harbor Freight, but I have 2 criteria, that override everything, buy nothing with an electrical cord or a battery, the Chinese are still behind the rest of the word in these areas, at least at the price point, your taking about.

[moe1942]

An all in one woman might be good...with an on/off switch...remote controlled of course. Beyond that a 3 in 1 anything is a big waste of money..

[DivTec]

Originally Posted by platypus20

Yeah, if you say so, but Everlast and Longevity, both say the same thing, yet the failure rate is in the 40-50%, based on personal experience and from reading other welding sites. As a product, that has to be rebuilt, right out of the box, to me is a POS.

Again you failed to understand, phone tech support is BS, I'm an industrial boiler service technician, I'm not a electronic technician. I have no desire to change capacitors, transistors, diodes or whatnot, I want the unit to be like a Bic pen, first time-everytime. I want a welder service technician, to fix my welders or plasma cutters, which in 40+ years has been exactly 2 welders.

At your pricing your clearly aimed at the home-shop section of the market, where the lure of a $1500 wonder machine, has an appeal. Where they have to scrimp and save to get the machine, then a failure is a huge blow to their checkbook.

I've been in the industrial side of the market, I've yet to see any of the Chinese equipment, on a jobsite. About 15-20 years ago the inverters, swept the industry, yet most of the equipment I've seen lately is moving back to the big transformer machines, like Lincoln IdealArcs and Miller DialArcs. As they are almost bullet proof, hard to kill.

Again, as I originally said, all-in-ones, are nothing I want, because they do many things, but rarely do they do anything well. Its like the lathe/milling machine/drill press, sold by some equipment manufacturers, it does work, but has severe limits in each mode and is a PITA to work with.

I bought Hypertherm plasma cutters over the years, I can buy consumables from almost every LWS, they are built like a tank and I've never had a operational issue, with any of them. I've own TDs, Esabs, Lincoln, Miller and a few other, plasma cutters, and have always returned to Hypertherm.

I would also worry about durability, I have a Hypertherm PM 45 and one of following welders, a Miller Maxstar 200 DX, a Miller CST280 or a Lincoln Invertec V-275S (depending on available voltages), in the truck at all times, the pounding of 40,000 miles a year, from -20 degrees to a 105 degree boiler room, and they flat out work everytime.

You openly admit the build quality is bad, yet are touting the machine as magic. Huge globs of silicone to hold pieces in place is not build quality, thats 8th grade shop class quality. The electrical design of the machine may be good, but the build quality or lack there of, is the down fall of these machines.

Maybe I'm different from some of the others, I make a living with my equipment, a dead unit is not an option. The work has to get done, there and now, to make money.

I buy multiple items from Harbor Freight, but I have 2 criteria, that override everything, buy nothing with an electrical cord or a battery, the Chinese are still behind the rest of the word in these areas, at least at the price point, your taking about.

I do understand that everyone claims that their products are the best and allot, if not most, of it is bullshit.

Which is why I've offer substantiation and not opinions. I don't think I've expressed even one opinion.

The phone technical support is not BS... everyone wants to able to talk to a qualified support person if they have a problem with any product.
The problem these days is that all you seem to get is a fat ass'd chick with no tits and a page-boy haircut on the other end of the line... and now there not even in this country. Now that is BS!
It sounds like for your line of work you must have super-reliable equipment, so tech support most likely is never an issue with those bullit-proof transformer based machines that are the side of a locomotive. I agree with you.
However, the small business and DIY guys just need a great small machine that performs and affordable and that is what I'm offering.

No a failure is not a big blow to their check-book as a good warranty is part of the sale. Also, they have saved a hell of allot of money up-front. Hey, if they want they can pay $3000 for the machine and I'll be glad to extend the warranty to say 5 or 6 years... or even more and I'll extend it to 10 years. Hey, wait a minute is that why the "name brand" machines cost so much. Hmm!

I'm a small businessman offering an affordable machine at a great price so many more people can afford to have a machine that IN FACT will out perform Miller, Hypertherm, etc.

I realize that is a bold statement... which can be proven... and if true, why would that pissed people off.
Seems like they should be excited at the value, as in great performance at low price.

Why would anyone be proud of paying thousands of dollars for a machine based on the feeling that they are still made in the USA... when they could buy one that is as good or better for much less.

Why be devotion to a brand that is allowing you to continue to think they are made in the USA. That is deception.
The sacred Miller, Lincoln, etc. brands you insist are not made in China actually (to varying degrees) are. Wake up to the facts.
Truth is is pure and trumps all else.

Which brings me back to the original point.
If what I am claiming is true... and it is... why would anyone want to waste their money on illusion.

Now I do think that Hyper-therm may in fact be made here in the USA. I have heard they are very reliable... although we did have one come in with a blown up board. Yes, it can happen. Couldn't repair it because we can't get schematics. It was VERY large and heavy also.

Hey, here are the facts. The Chinese machines are really an excellent design, and the parts are the same an in all other electronic equipment.
The build from the "factories" is typically poor and is the cause of those failures you find reported on the internet.
Poor build quality is not a problem for us because we know how to reinstate them. Not a big deal.
The performance is EXCEPTIONAL and the reliability is also good. We typically have around a 5% failure rate which really is not bad... and is certainly NOT caused by poor electronics design.

So... after chatting on this site for a few days I've concluded that it's more social that serious and many commenters seem to be legends in their own minds.

There seems to be much nostalgia, which is not a bad thing but, could explain the hostile attitudes toward anyone presenting anything that could threaten those beloved vintage machines or the perceived made in USA name brands.

Also it is so difficult to resist all those unsubstantiated negative opinions.

It seems that this site is not prepared to even allow a guy to prove what he claims or at least allow him to make fool of himself if he full of crap.

It appears that not anyone is even remotely interested in technical progress even as a topic of discussion?

Not one of you has poise a question of interest with regard to the technology... only derogatory comments.

To those that are interested in machines that will out perform virtually anything out there... I've offered to prove it... and many pro-welders have stated so over the years... I have many models at great prices for your shop.

Congratulations, you've succeeded in running off yet another small business.
That's the way to make America great again... attack small business.

Apologies will be accepted... sniff, sniff

[Shade Tree Welder]

DT, you came here on your own; we did not invite you.

Sent from the great beyond...

[platypus20]

What small business, your selling a dirt cheap Chinese made product that has absolutely no manufacturing value in the USA. Your a retailer not a manufacturer.

Telephone tech service is BS, expecting some one to change a part in a product your selling under warranty is BS. Thats why this will always be a marginal product. Extending the warranty is BS, its still a phone tech, with the customer doing the actual repairs, wow, quite a sale benefit (for you)

After my experience and what I've seen and read, I think the 5% failure rate, you stated, is BS. Could you imagine Lincoln or Miller living with a 5% failure rate, that would be totally unacceptable.

A product you have to "Spiff Up" right out of the box, tells me all I need to know.

You want people to take you seriously, show up to the site and be part of it, not to open up a Sales Venue, making outrageous claims.

As I said, I've been to China, I've seen their capabilities, you're like the all of the rest of the retailers, you sell a marginal, cheap, flawed product, then get up on your high horse when someone questions you, about your claims.

If American retailers stop selling cheap Chinese shit, they would quickly improve their quality. They are not a stupid people, the reason they make cheap shit, is American Retailers want cheap shit. If you want any respect as a businessman, work with the suppliers to get a better product, it would mean less grief for you, less warranty issues and give the customer a better product.

Luckily for me, I will never buy one of these machines, I have far too much respect for my hard earned money.

So your a snake oil salesman, who makes grossly unprofessional comments about tech support people, in general, your like a small kid, who knows he is wrong, but will not admit it, regardless of the outcome. You have a well oiled sales pitch, that may work on some, but when people who have made a living welding ask questions, you get your dander up and say we are not giving you a fair chance.

you want to get a fair option, send 2 machines to Shade, he will find a couple of users and give them 1-2 weeks to check it out, then give a fair report. Here is your opportunity to prove us all of wrong.