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greywynd 03-04-2018 04:13 PM

Possible new shop?
 
I’m looking at the possibility of a second garage at the house in Alberta. It would serve two main functions there, it would become the primary ‘shop’ space, for the equipment and working space, as well as a garage for my truck at times.

The current garage on the house is reasonable, about 22’ x 22’ inside, though when SWMBO has the requirement of indoor parking in that space, it gets reduced severly. Even empty it would be a real squeeze to fit the truck, as it’s within inches on both length and height with the 7’ overhead door. Add in the tools and equipment and the truck will never fit.

The lot has the additional feature of a side, and rear access alley. I’m flying out again shortly, and plan to look at size, setbacks etc to conform with building code requirements. I think, that if I go across the back of the lot, we wouldn’t lose a big chunk of the currently open yardspace, and it would create additional outdoor parking.

Right now I’m looking at 20’ x 30’, with 10’ high walls, and a 9’ x 16’ doublewide overhead door. Depending on height rules, I will look at bumping that up if possible and aim for a 10’ high door.




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Shade Tree Welder 03-04-2018 04:43 PM

Isn't Canadia metric.

greywynd 03-04-2018 05:07 PM

Officially, yes. Unofficially, we’re more like our prime minister, we’re a bastard child when it comes to measurement.

Building materials here are all Imperial nominal sizing, though if you really want to work in metric, it is possible to find the metric sizes in textbooks etc.

Same goes for all our steel/metal sizes too.

I guess when it comes to measurement, I could be considered ‘bi-lingual’. I can quickly convert nominal sizes in my head. It helps that I’m also fairly adept at basic math.

1” = 25.4 mm
0.01 mm = .004”
1 metre is approx. 39”
80 kms is 50 miles
1 kg is 2.2 pounds.

I grew up learning metric in school, but surrounded by imperial measurement elsewhere. Helping my dad, as a mechanic, used imperial/fractional wrenches and sockets.

Any building would be done using inches and feet.

The majority of machining and tooling I’ve dealt with has been imperial, however, depending on the customer, I’ve also done a lot of work in metric. Most of my measuring tools I have both. Or they’re digital so switch easily from one to the other.


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alchemist 03-05-2018 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 707057)
Officially, yes. Unofficially, we’re more like our prime minister, we’re a bastard child when it comes to measurement.

Building materials here are all Imperial nominal sizing, though if you really want to work in metric, it is possible to find the metric sizes in textbooks etc.

Same goes for all our steel/metal sizes too.

I guess when it comes to measurement, I could be considered ‘bi-lingual’. I can quickly convert nominal sizes in my head. It helps that I’m also fairly adept at basic math.

1” = 25.4 mm
0.01 mm = .004”
1 metre is approx. 39”
80 kms is 50 miles
1 kg is 2.2 pounds.

I grew up learning metric in school, but surrounded by imperial measurement elsewhere. Helping my dad, as a mechanic, used imperial/fractional wrenches and sockets.

Any building would be done using inches and feet.

The majority of machining and tooling I’ve dealt with has been imperial, however, depending on the customer, I’ve also done a lot of work in metric. Most of my measuring tools I have both. Or they’re digital so switch easily from one to the other.


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How is lumber sized in metric countries? Do you have 4x8 sheets of plywood etc...

Ironman 03-05-2018 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchemist (Post 707107)
How is lumber sized in metric countries? Do you have 4x8 sheets of plywood etc...

Yes, and they will be sold as 12mm, but known as 4x8 sheets size wise.
I found it interesting that when I want to build anything in Mexico, they sort of function the same way in the hodge-podge of inches and mm.

Food stores are all metric by weight.
IKEA of course is metric all the way, and they supply you with a tape measure when shopping so you can figure it out.

BukitCase 03-05-2018 12:47 PM

(0.01 mm = .004”) - got yer decimal in the wrong place; maybe better stick to building in inches/feet, or you might be in trouble :devil: ...Steve

digger doug 03-05-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchemist (Post 707107)
How is lumber sized in metric countries? Do you have 4x8 sheets of plywood etc...

"Cubits".....:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgsFCyD4nEw

greywynd 03-05-2018 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BukitCase (Post 707133)
(0.01 mm = .004”) - got yer decimal in the wrong place; maybe better stick to building in inches/feet, or you might be in trouble :devil: ...Steve



Lost a decimal in the translation from brain to phone.

0.01 mm is 0.0004”.

Or 1” = 25.4 mm.

And yep, building for me is feet and inches.

I’d also hazard a guess our 1/2” plywood, or 12mm, is actually 12mm, versus 12.7 or 1/2”. That .7 adds up over thousands of sheets.

I should measure some and see....


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clive 03-05-2018 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchemist (Post 707107)
How is lumber sized in metric countries? Do you have 4x8 sheets of plywood etc...

Here it has become 1200 x 2400
Welding wire used to be in gauge sizes, a 10 gauge was close to 1/8”. When we first went metric they still had many tons of wire so the packaging used to read 3.15 mm once they used that up, which took a few years they went to imperial sizes so now it has become 3.2 mm which is .125”

digger doug 03-05-2018 06:44 PM

I was in a large heavy fab shop, purchasing got engineering
to allow "Metric substitution" when inch plate is called for.

Unless specifically called out "do not substitute", purchasing could
substitute a metric sized up or down in thickness.

alchemist 03-05-2018 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironman (Post 707114)
Yes, and they will be sold as 12mm, but known as 4x8 sheets size wise.
I found it interesting that when I want to build anything in Mexico, they sort of function the same way in the hodge-podge of inches and mm.

Food stores are all metric by weight.
IKEA of course is metric all the way, and they supply you with a tape measure when shopping so you can figure it out.

What do you build in Mexico? Do you have land down there too?

Ironman 03-06-2018 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchemist (Post 707177)
What do you build in Mexico? Do you have land down there too?

No, a condo. We have had tables, desks built. Recently built a base for an electric oven. Replaced a H.W. heater this year, you need to know the size when you go to the store, there are many variables.

And when you are a DIY sort, you keep an eyeball out on what is around and how they make it.

mccutter 03-07-2018 02:41 PM

What the hell is this "Imperial" BS you speak of!?! :confused: :rolleyes:

Ironman 03-07-2018 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 707054)
I’m looking at the possibility of a second garage at the house in Alberta. It would serve two main functions there, it would become the primary ‘shop’ space,

This will require a building thread, and many pictures....it's mandatory.:D

greywynd 03-07-2018 09:59 PM

If/when we decide to do it, there will definitely be a thread!!

Actually Gerry, maybe you can fill me in on something. I’m thinking of going with an engineered pad, then I’m debating about a 2’ high concrete knee wall, then 8’ framing (or whatever height I can go to). I’m looking at different ways of creating a thermal barrier for the concrete pad and knee wall. Any thing that you’ve seen/done that would work well?


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milomilo 03-08-2018 10:22 AM

I made a 2' knee wall for my shop and used 12' walls. In part because the shop is sitting on an inclined surface. Back wall only sticks up a few inches above the ground. The best part is the inside walls have that 2' of concrete for protection from crap up against the walls.

greywynd 03-08-2018 10:32 AM

I’m thinking of going engineered slab (thicker at the perimeter, then tapers into the middle) and then a 2’ high knee wall. Since it will be heated, I want a thermal barrier under the slab and around the outside edge. Just trying to figure out if there’s a way I can also pour the knee wall as part of it, or do it as a separate/second pour.

I’ve also emailed a couple ICF places to see if they have anything that would let me form/pour it that way.


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milomilo 03-08-2018 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 707387)
I’m thinking of going engineered slab (thicker at the perimeter, then tapers into the middle) and then a 2’ high knee wall. Since it will be heated, I want a thermal barrier under the slab and around the outside edge. Just trying to figure out if there’s a way I can also pour the knee wall as part of it, or do it as a separate/second pour.

I’ve also emailed a couple ICF places to see if they have anything that would let me form/pour it that way.


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My wood shop has a 1' deep footer and monolithic slab all poured in one shot. Expect the knee wall would be a separate pour. Used fiber in the concrete and rebar around the perimeter. Power troweled floor, still no cracks after 12 years and very smooth.

midmosandblasting 03-08-2018 11:11 AM

Not from experience but read . On a poured slab go down on edge below frost line then out to the same width . This is supposed to stop it from freezing slab . Dr. Dean had a thread on pouring the floor in side his shop and used I thought floor heat . Maybe he will check in on how it worked .

camdigger 03-08-2018 12:36 PM

When I built my shop, I elected to put a standard 8' wall on top of an 18" pony wall. The pony wall and footing were poured separately from the 5 1/2" floor. IIRC, the floor slab had rebar on 18" centres, 3% air entrainment, and fibre mesh in the mix.

I did not go with in slab heat but chose infrared. My experience with inslab heat is that, while comfortable most of the time, it is very slow to respond to ambient temperatures or inside temperature changes. Infrared is quick and comfy. I can turn down the temp when I am out of the shop and crank it up when I am out there and the whole shop gets to a comfortable working temp in a half hour from the 50 f I leave it at.

It is sometimes months between shop sessions for me. Keeping everything thawed, but at a lower temp saves on heating cost.

If I had to build another, I would do the same, but I would go with 2x6 walls ( may be a requirement now?) and possibly spray foam insulation ( more research required, spray foam has had some issues lately).
I would also look at garage package. Some vendors put together some fairly good deals using standard dimensions that can give more building for your material dollar.

KevinF 03-08-2018 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midmosandblasting (Post 707390)
Not from experience but read . On a poured slab go down on edge below frost line then out to the same width . This is supposed to stop it from freezing slab . Dr. Dean had a thread on pouring the floor in side his shop and used I thought floor heat . Maybe he will check in on how it worked .

:D Frost goes down 9ft some years. errrr.. 2.74m..

greywynd 03-08-2018 01:36 PM

I don’t have an issue with an engineered slab, I’ve likely been involved in 20-30 of them over the years, maybe more. Most though are unheated storage garages.

I’ve done some that were heated, but they didn’t bother with a thermal barrier around the outside, so it leads to cold floor around the walls, and warm ground up against the building. Not really a good thing.

Heat I’m either going to go with a gas fired space heater or infrared, but it’s relatively small, we’re only talking 20’ x 30’.

Package price I already got. 20’ x 30’, 2x6 walls, 8 x 16 door, 34” man door, truss, roof sheating with 25 year shingles, vinyl siding for the outside, and the insulation package. No interior finish material, as I’m debating what I would go with. Price was about 12,500 before tax for a place out of Edmonton.


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milomilo 03-08-2018 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 707398)
I don’t have an issue with an engineered slab, I’ve likely been involved in 20-30 of them over the years, maybe more. Most though are unheated storage garages.

I’ve done some that were heated, but they didn’t bother with a thermal barrier around the outside, so it leads to cold floor around the walls, and warm ground up against the building. Not really a good thing.

Heat I’m either going to go with a gas fired space heater or infrared, but it’s relatively small, we’re only talking 20’ x 30’.

Package price I already got. 20’ x 30’, 2x6 walls, 8 x 16 door, 34” man door, truss, roof sheating with 25 year shingles, vinyl siding for the outside, and the insulation package. No interior finish material, as I’m debating what I would go with. Price was about 12,500 before tax for a place out of Edmonton.


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The only thing I would suggest is ditch the shingles and do a metal roof. By the way, I did have a plastic barrier put down under the concrete for the wood shop. I have a 5KW ceiling mounted forced air heater. Usually is set at the lowest temp, around 40F.

greywynd 03-08-2018 03:36 PM

Overall, since this is a military posting after all, I have to hit a balance on wants versus price, and keep resell and future use in mind.

Steel is great, but it is more $$$. Since our maximum time at the place will be about 12 years (her earliest retirement time) I’ll go with shingles. Someone else can decide what to put on next time.

The insulation I’m looking at the fact that we’ll be paying to heat it for, say 5-12 years, and I want it comfortable. It may end up being an income producing space, and if so, the heat will be more at working temps versus keep the frost out.


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camdigger 03-08-2018 07:51 PM

For the record, I would NEVER put anything smaller than a 36" door on the exterior of any building. Rapping my knuckles and elbows off narrow doorways over the years has made me cranky......

cramd 03-09-2018 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 707398)
I don’t have an issue with an engineered slab, I’ve likely been involved in 20-30 of them over the years, maybe more. Most though are unheated storage garages.

I’ve done some that were heated, but they didn’t bother with a thermal barrier around the outside, so it leads to cold floor around the walls, and warm ground up against the building. Not really a good thing.

Heat I’m either going to go with a gas fired space heater or infrared, but it’s relatively small, we’re only talking 20’ x 30’.

Package price I already got. 20’ x 30’, 2x6 walls, 8 x 16 door, 34” man door, truss, roof sheating with 25 year shingles, vinyl siding for the outside, and the insulation package. No interior finish material, as I’m debating what I would go with. Price was about 12,500 before tax for a place out of Edmonton.

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A garage door that wide is something I would stay away from myself. I have seen a 16' wide door header sag towards the middle and cause problems (father-in-law's garage), and eventually get replaced with two single doors with a central pillar to stop the header sag.
Something else to consider with respect to a garage with a rear or side alley is snow clearing. Here the back alleys used to be kept clear by the garbage removal contractor as the bins were at the back property line, but once they changed to individual house, front street pick up, the alleys are no longer kept clear. Right now, the one behind my house is under between 2 and 3 feet of snow and going to get deeper before spring gets here.

greywynd 03-09-2018 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camdigger (Post 707437)
For the record, I would NEVER put anything smaller than a 36" door on the exterior of any building. Rapping my knuckles and elbows off narrow doorways over the years has made me cranky......



I was thinking about that, and if it all happens, I think I’d tell them to switch it to a 36”. I’d likely look at adding a window on the door as well.


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greywynd 03-09-2018 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cramd (Post 707489)
A garage door that wide is something I would stay away from myself. I have seen a 16' wide door header sag towards the middle and cause problems (father-in-law's garage), and eventually get replaced with two single doors with a central pillar to stop the header sag.

Something else to consider with respect to a garage with a rear or side alley is snow clearing. Here the back alleys used to be kept clear by the garbage removal contractor as the bins were at the back property line, but once they changed to individual house, front street pick up, the alleys are no longer kept clear. Right now, the one behind my house is under between 2 and 3 feet of snow and going to get deeper before spring gets here.



Not a fan of the wide doors myself. However I think I’m stuck on a 20’ wide building. To keep it as a ‘double car garage’ for resale, I don’t have much choice.

I could squeeze two 9’ doors in, but 9’ is tight for a full size truck with mirrors etc.

A larger single door would be okay for my needs, but may cut into future use/resale some.

As to the snow, if need be I can do it myself. The alley goes along the left side of the house, and splits at the rear corner of the lot, with it also going across the back of our place. I may have to anyway, as I’ll be parking at least one trailer back there whether the shop happens or not.


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camdigger 03-10-2018 09:20 PM

8 high by 10 wide overhead doors are great for full size pickups.:D

I think the minimum practical wall length for 2 10 wide doors is 24'. 18" on othe upsides of each door with a 1' pillar between the doors. IIRC, the typical door hardware covers 4" outside the opening.

cramd 03-16-2018 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camdigger (Post 707593)
8 high by 10 wide overhead doors are great for full size pickups.:D

I think the minimum practical wall length for 2 10 wide doors is 24'. 18" on othe upsides of each door with a 1' pillar between the doors. IIRC, the typical door hardware covers 4" outside the opening.

I would agree whole heartedly with that statement.
Mine are 8' high, but at 9' wide, care is needed when putting my 3/4 ton with trailer mirrors in to the garage for working on it (can't keep it garaged in the second bay as the truck is too long for the interior length of the garage, plus I need space for my work table, welders/hydraulic press/tool boxes etc.).
Even with the mirrors pulled in all the way, there is still not a whole lot of wiggle room going through the door unless I fold them tight against the truck door, and I don't bother doing that.

greywynd 03-16-2018 06:50 PM

Therein lies my issue. I want the length so it is possible to park a full size truck in it, and ideally walk around it. I don’t know that I can go any wider than the 20x30 I’m looking at.

I could go with a large single door (say 10-12’ wide) but then it restricts it to being a ‘single’ car garage then.

I’ve also toyed with the idea of a wider header for a 16’ door, but then frame part of it in. This would let someone in the future easily swap out to wider if they wanted too.


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greywynd 03-29-2018 11:21 AM

Something of an update.

Spoke to the building official for the area. Spacewise I can do what I’m thinking, I could even go a little bigger, but I think it would get into some issues with existing items in the yard.

An engineered pad is not required, so if it happens, I’ll go with a 6” slab, with rebar. When I mentioned insulation under the slab the comment was “if you really want to”. I know I hate cold floors and cold feet, so will likely still insulate.

Can’t decide on the door. I’d want a 12’ wide at least, so I’m still tempted to go 16’, so it can be considered/called a two car garage. Realistically at 20’ wide it would be tight, though we have that problem in a different way with the existing garage.


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cramd 04-03-2018 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 709088)
Something of an update.

Spoke to the building official for the area. Spacewise I can do what I’m thinking, I could even go a little bigger, but I think it would get into some issues with existing items in the yard.

An engineered pad is not required, so if it happens, I’ll go with a 6” slab, with rebar. When I mentioned insulation under the slab the comment was “if you really want to”. I know I hate cold floors and cold feet, so will likely still insulate.

Can’t decide on the door. I’d want a 12’ wide at least, so I’m still tempted to go 16’, so it can be considered/called a two car garage. Realistically at 20’ wide it would be tight, though we have that problem in a different way with the existing garage.


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Back when I was still working the construction end of my career, I used to see some basements that had styrofoam insulation vertically up against the basement wall from ground level down for probably 2 feet or so, and then a similar piece laid horizontally out from the wall at the base of the vertical section.
I don't know if it was effective at all, but I do know that every one of them ended up with a gap where the underground utilities were trenched in :D.

greywynd 04-03-2018 07:58 PM

Wouldn’t have been involved in that gap now, would you? Lol

I’m hoping that if this is a go, I can plan enough to run sweep ells for all the possibilities. The way I figure it, a few bucks in plastic is way nicer than having to have conduit up the outside of a building.


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Ironman 04-04-2018 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cramd (Post 709420)
Back when I was still working the construction end of my career, I used to see some basements that had styrofoam insulation vertically up against the basement wall from ground level down for probably 2 feet or so, and then a similar piece laid horizontally out from the wall at the base of the vertical section.
I don't know if it was effective at all, but I do know that every one of them ended up with a gap where the underground utilities were trenched in :D.

That is the recommended way to insulate, I personally would go to the footing. There is a surprising amount of heat rising from the ground in winter. As any ice road driver will tell you when a rock comes to a point under the ise about 25 ft, it will melt the ice from the current developed and focused along the sides.

In my shop, before I had heat in it, the pail of water sitting on the floor would not freeze until the outside air reached -30C, as there was enough heat coming from the ground through the cement and being trapped in the building.

greywynd 02-16-2019 07:07 PM

Well, discussion of late is putting this back into the realm of possibility.

Been working on getting some pricing on 20x30, looking at maxing out on height with 12’ walls, and a 12’ wide, x 10’ high door.

Too much snow to confirm measurements, I think I’m maxed on width at 20’, length, if I can, I’m hoping to go a little more. 36’ is likely the absolute max I can go to on the length.

I hope to get some more numbers together over the next couple weeks.


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camdigger 02-16-2019 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greywynd (Post 730859)
Well, discussion of late is putting this back into the realm of possibility.

Been working on getting some pricing on 20x30, looking at maxing out on height with 12’ walls, and a 12’ wide, x 10’ high door.

Too much snow to confirm measurements, I think I’m maxed on width at 20’, length, if I can, I’m hoping to go a little more. 36’ is likely the absolute max I can go to on the length.

I hope to get some more numbers together over the next couple weeks.


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For my taste, 20' is a bit narrow for a 2 car garage. I'd like 22 minimum and as much as 26' if you can get away with it.

I think a full size extended cab pickup with an 8' box is on the order of 22' bumper to bumper. At least that is the number that I recall for my GM. 26' in depth of the garage gives just enough to walk around it, but no more.

I had gas fired infra red heat put in my shop nearly 20 years ago. I like it a lot. Virtually instant heat when required, and I can still turn the heat way down when I want to. I think you may be required to go to 2 x 6 wall even on a garage now. Worth checking. It does give another 2" of insulation.

Something I nearly got bitten with is having enough room above the door opening for the overhead door header. Apparently a double 2 x 12 is only good for a 10' opening.....long story.

Lu47Dan 02-17-2019 09:47 AM

Mark, when I did the figures for the shop roof, shingles were about 25% more than a steel roof.
That is with everything under them the same. Same sheeting, Ice & Water membrane, and other bits. If you are looking at hiring the work done, labor cost will be about double for shingles over steel.
Since I am going to build either a new shop or remodel the existing one, I went with steel on purlins. Instead of spending money on all the sheeting and the membrane.
I can re-use the steel panels.
Dan

Ironman 02-17-2019 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu47Dan (Post 730874)
Mark, when I did the figures for the shop roof, shingles were about 25% more than a steel roof.
That is with everything under them the same. Same sheeting, Ice & Water membrane, and other bits. If you are looking at hiring the work done, labor cost will be about double for shingles over steel.
Since I am going to build either a new shop or remodel the existing one, I went with steel on purlins. Instead of spending money on all the sheeting and the membrane.
I can re-use the steel panels.
Dan

I have no idea how long shingles last in our country , I suspect 10 years, as the mobile I just bought is 10 years old and they replaced the shingles in 2018.
I can assure you that next time, there will be a steel roof on it. I built a house in 1985 and roofed with steel, it is still as good as new two years ago. My shop, built 2009, has a steel roof as good as new 10 years on.
There are many cute designs out there to resemble shingles, tiles, shakes, or whatever turns your crank.
In the old days you had one profile and one color, galvanized.
And yes, I recycle them into barn siding or whatever, when someone gives me a bit of roof tin.

Um, Mark....you do realize we have a shop build forum? just sayin':D

greywynd 02-17-2019 04:05 PM

I think I may have started this just before the re-organizing of the closet happened.

Cutter would you be so kind as to move this?

I would love to go wider if I can, however there’s a tree and our gazebo/firepit that are in the way. I will have to do more measurement to see, but I think 20’ is all I will get on the width.

I’ve rethought the door, 12’ wide is what I’m going with, and with the higher walls, I’ll likely go 10’ high.

Again more measuring required, I’m hoping I can go a little longer, hopefully 36’ if I can.

The debate with the other half being military is always how far to go with quality. Ideally, there’s a good chance she’s here another 10 years until she would be able to retire.

I’ll price steel roofing, if it’s comparable I’ll go that route.

Shingles, for a 20x36 roof would only be 30 bundles or so, with the air nailer they go pretty quick.


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