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-   -   3 Point NO lifty lifty Case David brown 885 (https://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50228)

MetalWolf 11-26-2018 11:45 PM

3 Point NO lifty lifty Case David brown 885
 
Ok so this not my first Rodeo with these things an in my opinion one of the more complicated hydraulic systems I've had the no so pleasurable pleasure to work on but had one dropped off here early this morning.... good thig it is manual trans and not hydrostatic hydrostatics suck to work on any way shape or brand :rolleyes: ;)

Any way I have a very good idea what's going on with it... But it could be more serious than the normal issues they usually have...

But going to go through it all the way as it has some debris in the system from hooking up the auxiliary lines that laid I the dirt not sure why some one would hook up lines with out cleaning the connections first but at any rate the loader was working and 3 point was working guy took of the loader.

The three point was working then started getting slower an slower and now will not lifty at all.... fluid is clean and clear no water recent filters etc.

So for those of your who have had these same issues where you know it is "NOT" the pump... what would you look at/for first ? The relief valve ;)

SmokinDodge 11-27-2018 12:04 AM

As you sit on the tractor, on the right side about where your hand would fall there is a block with two shuttles that gummed with debris and cause that exact scenario on the three point system.

MetalWolf 11-27-2018 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokinDodge (Post 725423)
As you sit on the tractor, on the right side about where your hand would fall there is a block with two shuttles that gummed with debris and cause that exact scenario on the three point system.

Yep The relief valves which is what I suspect my self one has a small type of washer inside with a screen that clogs up or sticks from rust if it has been run with water in system and then sits for awhile
but being it was hooked up to lines that had dirt in them I may have to go further in to clear it all out I mean I could prolly clean the relief valves and it will most likely work but I suspect it will just do it again till all the dirt is flushed out of the system or doo you think it is more likely the filters will catch it before the relief valves plug and stick again so what's your opinion on what you would do to clear it or just let filters do it and chance it clogging or sticking again ?

Or should I say the control vale shuttle relief valves

Walker 11-27-2018 08:21 AM

Lift piston seals is my guess. Is there a handhole on the side you can remove to see where the fluid is dripping from?

MetalWolf 11-27-2018 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walker (Post 725440)
Lift piston seals is my guess. Is there a handhole on the side you can remove to see where the fluid is dripping from?

Ill have to look to be sure but I do believe there is a cover that can be removed to see if the fluid is massively flowing which would indicate a bad seal in the lift

Dr Dean 11-27-2018 01:46 PM

Piston seals usually cause hiccups for a long time before anyone addresses it. I'm betting on draft control linkage inside the rear end fell apart.

MetalWolf 11-29-2018 04:00 PM

UP Date
 
4 Attachment(s)
Ok so It is not the shuttle valves..... Something fell apart in the selectmatic draft control
and not sure where it goes exactly need to look at the manual and see as soon as I took off the inspection cover in the rear and cleaned out all the crap grease this was laying in the bottom looks to be a cam of some sort
its the part laying on top
it turns out its the ram cam the bolts sheared off so not something simple becomes something of a PITA

Attachment 148303Attachment 148304Attachment 148305Attachment 148306

MetalWolf 11-29-2018 07:16 PM

Un believable of all the crap that has to come apart just to fix this small problem because someone over tightened two tiny stud nuts
and now some of the crap it down in the housing and could fall in to the teeth of the bull gear and cause bigger problems....

MetalWolf 12-05-2018 09:15 PM

Well an expensive day today....
went an had the lift bar shaft that had the broken bolts that held the cam on that range the settle valves on the selectamatic hydrauis system for the 3 point to burn out holes and re-tap don't want to make anyone shit their self so I wont say but I could of bought a set of tires with it.

but now will be getting it back together and out soon well depends on when I feel like climbing out of bed ;)

any way I could not find 1/4 20 studs std. threads so I got the std. thread on one side 1/4 20 and machine threads on other side figure it should still work and using metal locking washer nuts instead of nut an lock washer

Ironman 12-06-2018 06:30 AM

[QUOTE=MetalWolf;725608
and now some of the crap it down in the housing and could fall in to the teeth of the bull gear and cause bigger problems....[/QUOTE]

Get a strong neo magnet or two and let it stick to the side of the case below the oil level. That will take the crap out of circulation.

MetalWolf 12-06-2018 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironman (Post 725994)
Get a strong neo magnet or two and let it stick to the side of the case below the oil level. That will take the crap out of circulation.

I may do that when I went to go buy new studs and some other bolts the service manager an I go to talking about removing bolts and talking about tractors and such he mentioned those welding rods designed for removing broken bolts gave me a couple samples rods to try out next time I need to remove a broken bolt and gave me a price as they sell them by the pound for 30 bucks a pound also mentioned the Nano magnets said he had some that could be attached to the drain plug by drilling and tapping the plug bolt to attach the magnet or by epoxy so it is something I will do to be on the safer side of things but for now I need to get the Selectamatic hydraulic valve body back together which is a bit more complicated than expected
plus a special tool needing to be made to adjust it correctly... lots of fun today cleaning it all up nice and clean and then more not so fun in the assembly

Lu47Dan 12-06-2018 04:23 PM

You know that if you make the tool, you will never need it again.:devil:
Dan.

MetalWolf 12-06-2018 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu47Dan (Post 726013)
You know that if you make the tool, you will never need it again.:devil:
Dan.

+1 on that the tool I did a search for and from what I gather you have to make it according to the article I found searching for the tool.... so making it verses buying it and the likelihood of never using it making it is prolly the way to go.... oddly it just looks like a basic curtain rod clip just bigger but needs to be precise on the measurement and bend not to complicated by any means as the article gives you the dimensions... with a small drawing of it..

MetalWolf 12-09-2018 04:09 PM

well last couple days was cold and constant rain here so not much this old body could do joints were a bit stiff and hard to get move in.... these things happen when ya are older and a bit broken in two.....

But today is a much nicer day mobility is a bit better so I'm out to get some things done....

An So I thought :mad:

I get some of the parts and housings cleaned up so I could start assembling the tractor but decided they needed to be painted first so I set every thing up on my paint stands.... all is good and moving rite along when the enviable happens.... I hear a ka~thunk and turn around to see the 85 lb. axle housing on the ground heavy enough to sink a bit in to the sand so now the paint not quite dry but in middle stages of tackiness wet enough to grab on to as much sand as it could.... So now I have to re-strip it and do it again.... but wondering how and who pulled the stand pins that caused it to collapse :confused: as I never pull the pins I just leave the stands because I use them often odd how the damdest things just grow legs and walk off
knowing someone pulled them because they had enough paint and crap on them you would need pliers to work em out.....

Sometimes you just wonder why you even crawled out of bed in the morning.... an so back to square one :(

MetalWolf 12-14-2018 12:15 AM

So for the last few hours I've been wrestling with the hydraulic valve on this tractor.... There is a tube that goes in to the housing that provides fluid from the pump to the valve and is held in place by a thread and lock nut from out side the axle housing but will not stay in place when your trying to reassemble the valve back in to the axle housing and you can only fish it in through a small port in front that the lift lever and draft control bolt on to

Man this thing is a big pain in the ass...…….But I finally got it in and secured to the valve.... I've been frustrated by some things but this just frustrated the tar out of me... so giving up for the night and gonna get back at it tomorrow and see if I can finish it all up and have it buttoned up for pick up... another day and another dollar lost....;)

Whitetrash 12-15-2018 07:51 PM

Was reading your post on this in what did you do today. It might be worth a shot to take a screw driver or a heel bar (or a stethoscope ) and put the end on the different valve bodies in the system and listen to what's going on. I had a main pressure relief valve bypassing on a truck packer body one time I could not pick up on with all the engine noise and whatnot. Stuck my ear to the end of long screwdriver with the tip on the relief valvebody the SOB was shrieking like a Banshee. It had a little sliver of metal caught in the relief valve keeping it from closing back up. Couldn't hear it but it was keeping system pressure down enough to screw up the entire packing cycle. Just a thought as you chase shit down.

MetalWolf 12-16-2018 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetrash (Post 726503)
Was reading your post on this in what did you do today. It might be worth a shot to take a screw driver or a heel bar (or a stethoscope ) and put the end on the different valve bodies in the system and listen to what's going on. I had a main pressure relief valve bypassing on a truck packer body one time I could not pick up on with all the engine noise and whatnot. Stuck my ear to the end of long screwdriver with the tip on the relief valvebody the SOB was shrieking like a Banshee. It had a little sliver of metal caught in the relief valve keeping it from closing back up. Couldn't hear it but it was keeping system pressure down enough to screw up the entire packing cycle. Just a thought as you chase shit down.

I went through all that and don't hear anything....

I am frustrated to no end with this one so I need to sit back and collectively get my head together and start from the beginning and go back through it which is a hell of a lot of work to do but it will need to be done...

Just when I think it will be a simple fix it just gets more complicated pain in the ass must be from getting old and tired either way its back to square one again....:(

Whitetrash 12-16-2018 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalWolf (Post 726527)
I went through all that and don't hear anything....

I am frustrated to no end with this one so I need to sit back and collectively get my head together and start from the beginning and go back through it which is a hell of a lot of work to do but it will need to be done...

Just when I think it will be a simple fix it just gets more complicated pain in the ass must be from getting old and tired either way its back to square one again....:(

OK, been there done that and yes I have the hard earned T-shirt. What is the system normal working pressure and where can you T in a gauge to see WTF is going on??? Ideally, you need to get a handle on pressure and volume. Pressure X GPM = work getting done. You need a concrete picture as to where to look. If you can pull 2000Lbs @ 20GPM you need to tear into the control circuit just my 2 cents .

MetalWolf 12-16-2018 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetrash (Post 726530)
OK, been there done that and yes I have the hard earned T-shirt. What is the system normal working pressure and where can you T in a gauge to see WTF is going on??? Ideally, you need to get a handle on pressure and volume. Pressure X GPM = work getting done. You need a concrete picture as to where to look. If you can pull 2000Lbs @ 20GPM you need to tear into the control circuit just my 2 cents .

Ill have to look and see what the actual working pressure is but it was 1800 at the auxiliary out put an according to the online book it should have 1 imperial gallon for 60 seconds of run time coming out of the return at the pipe on the TCU valve and appears I have that but also if no lift it could be the pipe going over to the lift piston fractured which means ripping the diff and axles apart just to get to it either way its no easy task

This thing has got me so stressed out all I see in my head when I try to sleep is that dam TCU valve and schematic sort of nightmarish shit...

kind of like a flash back from many years back... when I worked 3000 head of sheep for the first time in my life took me a couple of weeks to be able to close my eyes and fall asleep with out waking up in a cold panic sweat cause all I could hear and see in my head was those 3000 dam sheep jumping burring and bah-ing and a saddle sore ass to go with it... for a month

Anyway today is a new day of frustration just like the sheep I can't shoot the dam thing because it's stressing me out... I just got to figure out the problem an get the job done...

Lu47Dan 12-16-2018 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalWolf (Post 726531)
Anyway today is a new day of frustration just like the sheep I can't shoot the dam thing because it's stressing me out... I just got to figure out the problem an get the job done...

Walk away......

For awhile, do something else for a few hours or days.... Sometimes it helps.
I had a tractor that would not start in wet or rainy weather, after a week of running the wiring. I was stumped. No problem could be found. Fixing it became a mission, the owner, wanting it back, it setting there snearing at me, and not having a clue as what was wrong and how to fix it. I sent the tractor back with no charge for the work. It ended up in three seperate shops before landing back here, fifteen minutes with a garden sprayer, I had found the problem replaced the the low oil pressure switch and it will start in a monsoon now.
Dan.

Ironman 12-16-2018 10:34 AM

I know you have gone over all that stuff, but do you understand it's function, and can you visualize and run it in your mind?
I have the ability to run something and cycle it and usually when I am asleep at night and wake up to piss, the answer will show itself.
That does not mean every time this works.
The JD Model B was a case in point. I spent a year tearing into every aspect of the oil pressure and pump and filter system and removed and inspected them all, and every pipe and passage.
At last resort, I pumped oil into it from a pressure tank through the oil pressure gauge line to get lube to the bearings to prevent bearing damage from every time I fired it up dry without pressure.

Then it started pumping oil, and I'll never know why, but it took a year to succeed.

If you cannot clearly visualize how and why a hydraulic circuit does act in normal usage, I suggest you find a mentor who will help and explain what and why the thing does that.
I'm sure that in my case if I had somebody who was familiar with a JD B tractor he could have told me the answer in a heartbeat.

You need to find that guy. And the first question he will ask you is what is the system pressure that is produced? You need to know that. Not what it should be, but what it actually is.

MetalWolf 12-16-2018 06:31 PM

Well got back in to it and have a broke line inside the axle housing and that ain't no fun! :( double the trouble an no fun what so ever to do on these things.... I tell you if shit can go wrong it will go wrong.... you will know what I mean in the artic cat thread

MetalWolf 02-10-2019 01:27 PM

Well getting back to the selectromatic hydraulic system on this Case David Brown...

Took it all back apart last night and going to go through the valve body again, odd, part is I have hyd. pressure going to the axillary.
but no hyd. fluid or pressure to the valve body I'm guessing I'll have to rip the pump out and see what's going on in it

wondering if there are two sides to the pump that supply the circuits if they are separated.

MetalWolf 02-13-2019 07:42 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I'm not sure but I might be looking at this all wrong but it appears that the auxiliary valve body supplies the fluid to the TCU valve body then the TCU supplies fluid to the 3 point piston and then back to the low-pressure line to the pump.

I'm a bit confused and not sure if I am seeing it correctly on the piping diagram
I'm going to need to walk away from it for a few as it is just frustrating the crap out of me... but it does appear the high from pump runs through the auxiliary control valve before it reaches the TCU valve body that then supplies fluid pressure to the 3-point...

anyway I met my match on this one it just keeps kicking my ass I fix one thing and something else is fudged up:(

but by chance, I could be looking at the piping diagram wrong or am I?
here is a diagram of the piping I have 1800 psi going to the auxiliary control valve but I have no pressure actually no fluid going to the TCU and I'm thinking the auxiliary control valve works in three positions
Attachment 149365Attachment 149379

MetalWolf 02-14-2019 06:46 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Attachment pics without the gibberish piping and TCU valve and auxiliary control valve looking at it look's like fluid is going through the auxiliary valve first then to the TCU valve which sends fluid to the 3-point piston cylinder.
Attachment 149384Attachment 149385Attachment 149386

MetalWolf 02-16-2019 05:13 PM

Ok now I have the issue figured out the problem laid in the auxiliary control valve being it is a three-way directional valve and bypass, it was stuck in a manner it appeared to be a two way only.

But would not have known unless it was taken fully apart... which turned out to be not just one issue with this thing but just one of three, the cam to the TCU draft control was sheared off.

The TCU valve was full of garbage and some rust from water sitting in it and then the auxiliary valve was in position for the bucket attachment and the internal parts were bent from it being forced, And so the actuator and spring were seized in the actuator positioning housing.

So now I have ripped it all back down and in doing so I found loose bolts to pump shaft and PTO shaft drive socket coupling just ready to fall off into the bull gear housing.

But I did find the broken stud bolts and nuts from the lift arm camshaft...

So now tomorrow, Is another day and will be putting all the crap back together and hopefully, I have no issues like before getting the feeder line attached back to the TCU valve.
It is the worst part of the repair 6" curled bent tube to fit in a space only 2" wide not an easy thing to do. And no simple easy way to do it...

Whitetrash 02-16-2019 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalWolf (Post 730848)
Ok now I have the issue figured out the problem laid in the auxiliary control valve being it is a three-way directional valve and bypass, it was stuck in a manner it appeared to be a two way only.

But would not have known unless it was taken fully apart... which turned out to be not just one issue with this thing but just one of three, the cam to the TCU draft control was sheared off.

The TCU valve was full of garbage and some rust from water sitting in it and then the auxiliary valve was in position for the bucket attachment and the internal parts were bent from it being forced, And so the actuator and spring were seized in the actuator positioning housing.

So now I have ripped it all back down and in doing so I found loose bolts to pump shaft and PTO shaft drive socket coupling just ready to fall off into the bull gear housing.

But I did find the broken stud bolts and nuts from the lift arm camshaft...

So now tomorrow, Is another day and will be putting all the crap back together and hopefully, I have no issues like before getting the feeder line attached back to the TCU valve.
It is the worst part of the repair 6" curled bent tube to fit in a space only 2" wide not an easy thing to do. And no simple easy way to do it...

That bastard is just going to fight you to the bitter end. I know you'll be a happy camper when it's done.

MetalWolf 02-16-2019 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetrash (Post 730852)
That bastard is just going to fight you to the bitter end. I know you'll be a happy camper when it's done.

It has! but I don't give in that easily ;) and once this part is done it's on to addressing the engine and cooling issues. although those are things that are not really horrible issues. and are just serious leakage that needs to be addressed... If not they are at the point of becoming a critical failure of the machine as well.

And to be honest I am not sure why I have had so much trouble with this system two hardest things to do is adjusting the TCU Valve as it has to be done with a dial indicator and be within a half thousandths of an inch on one valve and the other three thousandths... making the tool for the other adjustment wasn't hard I just gave the diagram to my buddy at the machine shop and he made it...:D

And getting the TCU valve back into the hole with the heavy lift rod attached to it and the connection tube that goes from the TCU to the ram piston with little to hardly any room to get it in there is a total pain in the ass.

But once it's done then the other pain in the ass has to come in and put the hydrostatic trans in the bobcat do all the flushing and pull the drive motors off and apart to ensure there is no debris of any kind...

but if someone asks me to take in another one identical to this well they might better brace their self... :eek:
They are going to need some deep pockets for parts for this thing, they are not cheap by any means of the word.

Whitetrash 02-16-2019 09:44 PM

The projects where you walk away and go to bed pissed off right before you just want to throw a railroad flare in the MF and cheer while they burn. I don't miss them. But, I miss that feeling of satisfaction when you finally unravel the puzzle and get to declare victory when they roll out of the shop. :D

MetalWolf 02-17-2019 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitetrash (Post 730867)
The projects where you walk away and go to bed pissed off right before you just want to throw a railroad flare in the MF and cheer while they burn. I don't miss them. But, I miss that feeling of satisfaction when you finally unravel the puzzle and get to declare victory when they roll out of the shop. :D

you weren't kidding about this POS fighting me all the way.
I got back out there about 12ish and fought with that dam spool valve seal seat
trying to get it unstuck, and it took me about three hours was getting to the point I just might have had to cut it out on the mill but it's an obsolete part and I would have to turn one out on the lathe... but then I ended up getting it out with my piolet bushing puller and some heat with the plastic welder
I use the plastic welder in sensitive places as I can direct the heat in more precise spots or places it runs 1800 deg. which is enough for the expansion of small objectives... but it's not done yet got one more but its a bushing sal with the wipe so need to be much more careful with it...

so I'm calling it a day being have a surgical procedure tomorrow morning again...:( will be down for a couple days only I hope and then I can get back to being pissed off at this thing once more:rolleyes:;)

MetalWolf 02-17-2019 11:35 PM

4 Attachment(s)
So I ended up getting a good rest this afternoon and felt a little energized after and went back out to shop for a little, to clean up some of the hodgepodges off my welding Table/Workbench.

once I got it cleared away and some tools put up I figured id get something else done on the tractor, so I ended up putting the pump differential housing plate back on and then went through the hydraulic pump cleaned and put the new pump gears I ordered in it.

Then started on the PTO housing and gears cleaned up the gears and housing Installed one new bearing and snap ring together, put the pump on.

And on to reinstalling the PTO assembly was not easy as the son of a gun is really difficult, but while picking up tools I decided to clear the 3in1 off the lift cart table and used it to lift it in to place, and still, was a bit of a pain to get it perfectly aligned up to the shaft coupler.

therefore now I'll only need to focus on the TCU valve and the Double action auxiliary valve after I'm back up and running/walking
Attachment 149414Attachment 149415
Attachment 149416Attachment 149417


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