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allessence
08-27-2016, 08:45 PM
I was parusine ebay doing the usual looking for stuff I don't need..

I came across a 16" Buffalo Silent 200.. As most of you know I prefer the Buffalo silent 200 hand crank blowers over any other brand or model..

Anyhow, I could hardly belive my eyes.. A 16".. Never heard they made one that big..

So, I put to work to figure out the mystery.. Turns out Buffalo Forge and blower company did make a 16" blower for 2 years.. It was special order and in the 38 years of me doing this work I had never seen one or heard of one..

The guy wanted way to much money for a forge and blower so I made an offer which got turned down..

I followed the items through multiple ebay listings and made offers when the items would come up for bid/offers..

the price kept dropping..

Anyhow when it got to 398.00 or make offer I offered 350.00 thinking I could sell the forge for 100.00 and this would bring the cost of the blower down to 250.00+ shipping..

Only catch was it was local pickup only.. I really didn't want to purchase a non working blower but the guy though reluctant to post any extra pictures or supply me with any other info was a huge red flag, but I couldn't help myself..

I called my buddy Clint who lives in the area of Fort Worth, TX about 15minutes from the person selling the stuff and asked if he would be willing to pick the stuff up and ship me the blower till I could find time to get down there and pick up the forge.. Turns out he needed the forge for his firepot he bought 20 years ago.. Clint was my striker for nearly 10 years.. He started when he was about 13 years old.. His favorite hammer was the 16lbs sledge and he could swing it all day..

I was tough to work for way back then..

Anyhow, the blower is beat.. It looks like the housing filled up with water and rusted and besides that.. the guy selling it fucked it up by drilling out the input gear as the shaft was worn and instead of fixing it right he drilled and tapped the hole larger.. Makes me wanna punch him in the face.. Why do people do stupid stuff..

Sorry,, Nothing worse than a bad fix..

So, today I spent some time cleaning and tearing it apart to see just how bad of shape its in.. It's pretty bad.. Looks like it has a million cycles on it with bad or no oil.. all the bushing are shot, all the gears are worn, and all the bearings are rusted past being serviceable except in armageddon/apocalypse type place/time..

It needs a complete rebuild.. The gears I think I can get to work and be a decent sounding blower but they gears are 50% worn.. Had I picked up the blower in person I would have cancelled the deal and walked away feeling okay about it..

So, now I have the complete early line of Silent 200 blowers.. the 16" was made 1901 and 1902.. I have a 12", 14" and 16".. Cast iron housings.. They made a silent 200 in a pressed steel housing which is not so good..

You can see the damage that was not disclosed when I asked the guy what kind of shape it was in... Usable condition was his reply..

You can also see how much bigger the gear cover is vs the 14"..

allessence
08-27-2016, 08:54 PM
Looks like the people who owned this weren't very good at fixing stuff even way back..

Poor blower.. wonder what kind of items the person made who owned the blower..

You can see where instead of driving out the tapered pin, the idiot just drilled the hole bigger and threaded it.. He replaced the shaft but,, argh. !@#@$%%^%.. Mother#$%TT^^^^%#$W5re..

LOL.. Okay sorry.. just venting my frustration.. I'll behave now..

Someone had banged the end of the shaft with a hammer so the shaft was damaged.. I had to file it back down to size to get the fan off..

allessence
08-27-2016, 09:05 PM
And, the rest for tonight..

By the way I just like to say as an expression about poking someone in the eye or punching in the face.. I really don't have an assaulting bone in my body..

midmosandblasting
08-27-2016, 09:18 PM
Some people definition of usable is a lot different than others.Now you know why it kept coming up and why no more pictures were offered.

toprecycler
08-27-2016, 10:11 PM
Sometimes you gamble and lose, when you can't get all the info that easily sent in today's age. But if anyone can bring it back to life, I know it is you Jennifer.

Brian

kiwi
08-27-2016, 10:27 PM
Jenn,
Did you give him the appropriate feedback for his eBay account?

Scotts
08-28-2016, 07:41 AM
Hey Jen,

Here is a series of videos where Keith Rucker rebuilt a blower. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vk4S_zl3n8&list=PLbGC44mjwqrcSBAhN0xHeWASQAv0km65n)

Scott

allessence
08-28-2016, 09:03 PM
Some people definition of usable is a lot different than others.Now you know why it kept coming up and why no more pictures were offered.

You said a mouth full there.. One level of someones opinion of useable...

I kind of figured as much.. Not new to Ebay but was hopeful.. :)

Sometimes you gamble and lose, when you can't get all the info that easily sent in today's age. But if anyone can bring it back to life, I know it is you Jennifer.

Brian

I am hopeful.. And besides that I might be an excellent learning lesson.. I've always wanted to learn how to cut gears..

The tough one will be the pinion gear as its helical cut.. :eek:

Jenn,
Did you give him the appropriate feedback for his eBay account?

I was to late.. I did email him and tell him how I felt about the exchange and how I felt shystered.. By the time I received the blower it was a few months after the auction. So no feedback..

Hey Jen,

Here is a series of videos where Keith Rucker rebuilt a blower. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vk4S_zl3n8&list=PLbGC44mjwqrcSBAhN0xHeWASQAv0km65n)

Scott

Nice find.. I watched part of it and the lathe work I think I can handle.. The gear cutting not so sure yet.. I'll get the bushings made and the pinion bearings replaced then I'll see how things sound.. If all good I'll put it back together but if it's noisier than I like well then it will be gear time..

Helical gear on the bottom might be out of my realm of ability.. So will see.. Keep your fingers crossed..

AJinNZ
08-29-2016, 08:57 AM
I really don't have an assaulting bone in my body..


Well, you could send your mate back round there and get him to take his 16 pound sledge with him. :devil: :D

Shade Tree Welder
08-29-2016, 09:28 AM
Some people should not be allowed near tools...

Sent from the great beyond...

allessence
08-29-2016, 07:57 PM
Well today I got it apart and got everything cleaned up..

I believe the blower had been messed with... There are some things that don't make sense to me.. The middle shaft slides through and is not locked to anything.. In other words there is nothing to hold the shaft in the blower as both ends are open.. So, I'd have to guess that the shaft had been replaced..

So the end shaft play isn't regulated.. I believe there is suppose to be either a washer attached to made on the shaft or the end cap was drilled out..


the bearings for the output shaft are complete toast.. Some were missing and the ball cage only had half..

Only the area right under the gear has a bearing on it.. The rest of the shaft is only supported by the cast iron it runs through..

In some ways it seems like it was engineered backwards.. Or I should say using older technology to build and design it..

The 12" uses bearings at both sides of the shaft.. I believe they did away with the outside bearing to stabilize the shaft using the cast iron as the bushing.. Hard to make assumptions 115 years later..

So I have included pictures of the middle shaft which controls lash and mesh between the top gear and the bottom pinion..

You turn the eccentrics and lock them in place when you find smooth, quite, running..

You can see where the tapered pin half was left when the fool drilled out the hole and threaded it for the bolt.. Still makes me made.. The tapered pin came right out..

allessence
08-29-2016, 08:07 PM
Here you can see the fan size differences.. The 16" is a lot larger..

The lower bearing is toast.. It will need replacement.. It was a cone which is attached just below the pinion gear.. Then the bearing cage, which 1/2 is missing and some balls.. The inner race and the cone are shot..

digr
08-29-2016, 09:15 PM
You have some work to do! is there a patent #? Maybe able to find a drawing

digr
08-29-2016, 09:26 PM
Here is a 1906 model (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US820431-0.png)

allessence
08-30-2016, 08:16 AM
Here is a 1906 model (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US820431-0.png)

No patent date on any of the silent 200's.. Only reference in trade journals..

From what I can tell. Buffalo forge did a lot of copying or even sub contracted out to other companies to brand their name on the other companies product..

Columbian made a huge tire bender and for a few years Buffalo forge offered the same bender..

Also, the Champion forge and blower company with the famous 400 blower later you can see that Buffalo offered the same model but with Buffalo's name on it..

The silent 200 was a Buffalo forge and blower only offering..

If's pretty amazing to me still to think the golden age of the blacksmith was really short lived after WW1 blacksmithing as a trade started to fade and by the depression most were gone..

Mind you there were ones that lingered.. I knew a guy who ran his shop into the 60's and I imagine it was the same in a lot of mill towns.. I know there was an Axe company in ME who also lasted into the 60's making hand made axes..

allessence
09-01-2016, 07:57 PM
I was able to get a lot of the loose fitting problems addressed between yesterday and today..

I tried to use al-Br tig rod and tigged it on for one application.. My results were varied and not at all happy with the finished product.. I ended up with lots of mixing of the cast with the bronze.. I put some all around the gear that fits into the other gear and filled the screw lock area with the bronze as well..

I then turned both parts to smooth out any wear and then gave them a slip fit..

I then threaded the hole back to 1/4X20 tpi and put a lock screw in..

I also fixed the buggered threaded hole the idiot did.. I A/O brazed all that back into good shape after trying the tig rod last night again not happy with the results..

So after I laid and filled all the holes I had the forge going so just laid it on top of the fire while I did a road trip..

Came back to a nice straight and true cast iron gear with no extra broken bits..

I'll need to find a tapered drill bit so I can reproduce what was there..

My plan is/was to make the blower usable and once the shop is up I'll cut new gears once I get the new equipment in.

Heres the pictures..

allessence
09-01-2016, 07:59 PM
Now I just need to figure out how to get the old bearing out of the blower housing..

Any idea's? There are no lips or cut outs inside the housing for bearing removal..

The bearing is smaller than the casting boss..

toprecycler
09-01-2016, 08:09 PM
Now I just need to figure out how to get the old bearing out of the blower housing.. Any idea's? Can you make some sort of expandable puller? Turn something in the lathe that will fit into the bearing race and slot it so you can thread a tapered bolt in and it will expand into the race and allow you to grip the race to pull it? Do you have access to both sides? If you can get the puller to expand, you might be able to hit it out from the backside instead of pulling it.

Brian

toprecycler
09-01-2016, 08:11 PM
Or try welding something to the race to pull it out. I think I remember someone welding a rod or something to races before and the welding would help shrink the race loosening it after it cooled.

Brian

Whitetrash
09-01-2016, 08:17 PM
Run a weld bead around the inside of the race to shrink it and it should come right out.

digr
09-01-2016, 08:25 PM
Check this out (http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28915)

mccutter
09-02-2016, 10:37 AM
Now I just need to figure out how to get the old bearing out of the blower housing..

Any idea's? There are no lips or cut outs inside the housing for bearing removal..

What is the approximate OD of the bearing? Camshaft bearing remover/installer? :confused:

PS: hmmm, maybe not--just refreshed my memory with some pics--cam bearings are not blind...

Maybe tailshaft bushing tools? Or something along those lines? How bad are the bushings? Is a little slop OK?

milomilo
09-02-2016, 10:50 AM
Is here gear oil in the casing or just smeared grease on the gears for reassembly?

allessence
09-02-2016, 04:36 PM
Check this out (http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28915)

Very neat concept.. there is literally no place to get anything in there.. I like how you did it but there is nothing to grab onto or to push on..

An expanding mandrel that can grab the inside of the race which is basically just a hardened piece of angle iron not unlike a bicycle style bearing.. If you look at the pictures closely you will see the housing is higher than the bearing.. Looks like it was not designed to be fixed..

What is the approximate OD of the bearing? Camshaft bearing remover/installer? :confused:

PS: hmmm, maybe not--just refreshed my memory with some pics--cam bearings are not blind...

Maybe tailshaft bushing tools? Or something along those lines? How bad are the bushings? Is a little slop OK?

Same deal as mentioned.. Problem is there is nothing to grab onto.. And expanding mandrel would be best.. Not exactly sure of the size yet.. I will measure in the next few days..

Is here gear oil in the casing or just smeared grease on the gears for reassembly?

There is gear oil in the case.. Well.. Back in the day it was any oil or bacon fat or any other item they had on hand..

I'll use some Mobil DT Heavy.. I'll also work on sealing up the box so it doesn't leak oil as heavily..

allessence
09-02-2016, 04:49 PM
So made pretty good progress again today..

Got the handle/drive shaft thrust bearing installed.. It is just a ball bearing locked into the end of the shaft..

This rides against a threaded rod with lock nut on the other side with the same bearing installed.. The to rubbing together is the bearing surface.. Works pretty well..

The next thing was to make the new intermediate shaft thrust locator and new intermediate shaft.. Shaft was easy as it's just 1/2" cold rolled cut to length..

The intermediate thrush locater on the other hand was probably the most complex piece I have ever made with the off center hold..

This is screwed in until it locates the intermediate gear at the correct clearance for the pinion gear..

The input gear is located but the position of the gear on the shaft and is only adjustable by adding a shim to the handle side and moving the thrust bearing outwards.. Only adjustment is in and out..


The intermediate shaft has 360 D adjustment for correct gear mesh and correct gear clearance as well as left or right int he housing..

The bottom pinion is also held in place by the thrust bearing on the outside bearing block but only for thrust same as the input handle/shaft..


So I still need to add the 2 small pin holes to make rotating the intermediate 360 adjusters easier.. I also added a 1/2" threaded hole to one side so I can add a thrust bearing here also though the intermediate shaft does not turn.. Its more for oil control..

This thing reminds me of a 2stroke diesel... Oil everywhere and you can't kill it..

I shot some video of just moving the gears by hand and so far I am very excited.. It sounds gear even with no bearings on the output shaft..

Few more days and it will be done.. I'll try to locate a pinion bearing next..

One other factor about this blower the output shaft actually has an oil hole to pick up slung oil to feed the shaft..

allessence
09-02-2016, 04:58 PM
Here is the inside with the intermediate shaft in place with the new parts..

Also a picture of the old one..

digr
09-02-2016, 05:34 PM
The puller I made removes the bearing using the inside race.

allessence
09-02-2016, 06:10 PM
The puller I made removes the bearing using the inside race.

Sorry there is no inside race.. only thing left is the bearings outside race which is still stuck in the housing..

The expanding idea is brilliant.. But there is not really anyway to grab it..

here is a picture again of the race inside the housing...

Whitetrash
09-02-2016, 06:50 PM
The little booger way down in there? I still say some weld to shrink it or the Nuclear solution. I will preface this by saying I am not a huge fan of this method it either works or FUBARS shit in a hurry. Take a small OXY/ACT welding tip and heat a slice/section of the race to cutting temp ( For me when sparks start to fly) when you have it to temp cut the fuel and crank open the Oxygen as the race melts/ blows away chase it down to the dark division between the race and the housing don't tary and don't use a good welding tip. :eek:

allessence
09-02-2016, 07:22 PM
The little booger way down in there? I still say some weld to shrink it or the Nuclear solution. I will preface this by saying I am not a huge fan of this method it either works or FUBARS shit in a hurry. Take a small OXY/ACT welding tip and heat a slice/section of the race to cutting temp ( For me when sparks start to fly) when you have it to temp cut the fuel and crank open the Oxygen as the race melts/ blows away chase it down to the dark division between the race and the housing don't tary and don't use a good welding tip. :eek:


I think I will try to hit it with the tig torch.. I have a long lens so should be able to get down in there..

My skill set isn't good enough to get in there with an A/O torch.. I'd be afraid to gouge out the housing.

The bearing is junk so no matter what I have to replace it..

anybody know where I can find a cone and cup bearing?

GWIZ
09-02-2016, 07:40 PM
I would try to Dremel two sides then maybe stick weld a bar/something across the race and hit that thru the far side of the hole.

SmokinDodge
09-02-2016, 10:16 PM
I've got two suggestions for the bearing:

1. I'd try to run a tap down the middle of it and get some sort of thread in it. Then it's a simple matter of stacking some washers and using a nut to withdraw it. Or similarly weld a nut in the center and use a bolt. Welding on the race is a great way to get it moving but it takes a good bit of weld. Any heat is good.

B. drill a series of small holes from the Id to the od to relieve the tension. Use a chisel and break the thin bit of bearing cup between holes. This method would really suck but I KNOW it would work

Don't be too scared to use the cutting torch. What your dealing with there is a lot like a tractor wheel stud broke off. A steel piece in a cast iron piece is a cinch to cut. The steel will cut easily waaaaay before the cast iron SIL deform/cut

allessence
09-04-2016, 10:10 AM
I've got two suggestions for the bearing:

1. I'd try to run a tap down the middle of it and get some sort of thread in it. Then it's a simple matter of stacking some washers and using a nut to withdraw it. Or similarly weld a nut in the center and use a bolt. Welding on the race is a great way to get it moving but it takes a good bit of weld. Any heat is good.

B. drill a series of small holes from the Id to the od to relieve the tension. Use a chisel and break the thin bit of bearing cup between holes. This method would really suck but I KNOW it would work

Don't be too scared to use the cutting torch. What your dealing with there is a lot like a tractor wheel stud broke off. A steel piece in a cast iron piece is a cinch to cut. The steel will cut easily waaaaay before the cast iron SIL deform/cut

Do you own taps that will thread bearing material? Rc60+ What brand?

Same with drills.. I don't own any carbide drills.. Will other work? I do have some of the drill through anything drills but they usually make a mess as you have to use very high speed and down force next thing you know you are through the other side.. :eek:

My lack of expereince in this department leaves it beyond my abilities on a vintage piece..

SmokinDodge
09-04-2016, 01:10 PM
Do you own taps that will thread bearing material? Rc60+ What brand? Same with drills.. I don't own any carbide drills.. Jen I don't own any special taps or drill bits. I figured you'd heat the race with a torch to soften it up a bit. ;)

allessence
09-04-2016, 07:23 PM
Jen I don't own any special taps or drill bits. I figured you'd heat the race with a torch to soften it up a bit. ;)

Tricky,,, very tricky.. :D

Ironman
09-05-2016, 09:57 PM
I would heat that race with a gas welding tip or even the cutting torch flame.
It will expand with nowhere to go because of the casting holding it, so it upsets. When it cools you can often slide it out with your fingertip

LW Hiway
09-06-2016, 12:10 AM
!@#@$%%^%.. Mother#$%TT^^^^%#$W5re.. How Jen becomes one with the blower.

Blower, thy name is !@#@$%%^%.. Mother#$%TT^^^^%#$W5re.. :D

allessence
09-12-2016, 06:26 PM
how jen becomes one with the blower.

Blower, thy name is !@#@$%%^%.. Mother#$%tt^^^^%#$w5re.. :d

lol..

allessence
09-12-2016, 07:25 PM
Over the last week or so I have done some work on the blower.. Just been to busy to get over here to tell you guys about it..

I haven't down anything about the inner race yet.. I did drill and then redrill the input shaft as well as, well I just made a new shaft..

The one made previously I ruined by drilling off center.. I was doing it by hand with no guides.. The second shaft went much faster than the first.. and once I figured out the angle to drill at using the mis drilled one I just center drilled it on the drill press..

I then made a tapered pin.. I bought a tapered drill used for setting screws with a counter sink.. It worked ok.. The pin is undersized but it should work for years..

The blower with the fixes I have done sounds decent.. It still sound s little rattle trappy as the thrust bearing is nonexistent..

I think i'm going to find a way to use a more modern bearing.. This thing could sound mint and since it has no way of having any kind of oil seal if I do a grease seal on the bearing it will at least slow down the oil from coming out..

allessence
09-12-2016, 07:28 PM
So here you can see the pin is a little smaller.. the standard pin is a size 4 I believe.. The small diameter is .224" I wouldn't want to go back to that big because the gear has some damage where the old holes were.. If the pin i made fails I'll go a little bigger and at some point I want to make new gears so will keep my eyes open..

duckman903
09-13-2016, 09:11 PM
Jen I assume you have an arc welder you just have to run 3 or 4 3/8" long beads in in the race and it will fall, take a small rod (3/32" or 1/8") bend the end so you can weld a bead on the ID of the bearing, I've litterly taken dozens of Timken outer races out of gear boxes and the welding never failed me.

allessence
09-14-2016, 07:39 PM
Jen I assume you have an arc welder you just have to run 3 or 4 3/8" long beads in in the race and it will fall, take a small rod (3/32" or 1/8") bend the end so you can weld a bead on the ID of the bearing, I've litterly taken dozens of Timken outer races out of gear boxes and the welding never failed me.

I'll more than likely try the tig torch as I have long cups and I should be able to get down in there..


The blower with the work I have done sounds pretty decent.. Once the bearing is in it will make a much better ideal..

ozhunter
07-03-2017, 04:32 PM
Hi, did you come up with a solution to get the race out and replace the bearing? I have the same problem with my 14"

Regards

Adam

allessence
07-03-2017, 04:41 PM
Hi, did you come up with a solution to get the race out and replace the bearing? I have the same problem with my 14"

Regards

Adam
HI Adam. Not that I don't doubt you but the 14" up till the sheet metal ones have a full sized bearing I believe it has 2 magneto bearings.. I'll look again later but I remember being able to knock it out from the other side once the plate which is threaded in is removed...

If you post a picture of the blower it would help me out a lot.

Sent from my SM-N910C using ShopFloorTalk mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=94314)

ozhunter
07-03-2017, 05:12 PM
Thanks for replying.

It is a 14" all cast with all original parts, including grease and busted ball cage.

I should start my own thread so I don't hijack yours.

Regards

Adam