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View Full Version : Hay Budden 1909 198lbs special order?????


allessence
06-07-2016, 10:57 AM
Okay.. So this anvil is weirder than a monkey on a pigs back racing at the Kentucky derby..

It has 198lbs stamped in it.. though it's only 4" wide.. Has a 1 1/8 hardie, and only a 1/2" pritchel hole.. No side relief for cutting table.. Large cutting table..

A 200lbs HB anvil standard measurements are:

4.5X18 face, horn 11.5, hardie hole 1 1/8" and pritchel 11/16"

This one: 4X17 5/8"

You would think that the Farriers models were a slimmer width but this anvil also has no step from the body to the cutting table.. nor 2 pritchel holes. Nor clip hornes..

Nearly all the weight is in the base and body.. The waist of the anvil is longer than any other HB I have ever seen including the farriers model..

And to boot it has 2 serial numbers.. One in the correct spot and another on the opposite foot..

165020 and 162702 These are both HB stamps..

This is or was the Hardware anvil I have been looking for.. Something in the 200+ range with a narrow face..

I bought it from a sink die maker How closed up shop year before last..

I missed out on all the good stuff.. They had been in business since 1842..

Had 2 powerhammers which were supposed to be like brand new. 2 floor model coal forges which the woman scrapped. ETC, etc..

Anyhow she has been posting to CL and I went there few months back to look at the 223lbs HB she had but the horn was mangeled..

I didn't see this 198lbs last time.. Supposedly all the anvils were bought brand new from their prospective MFG's..

allessence
06-07-2016, 12:44 PM
So here are the 2 (200lbs) side by side..

You can see the standard shape/size as the wider faced anvil vs the narrower one..

The fit and finish is also better.. You can see how well the bottom of the anvil is finished as well..

GWIZ
06-08-2016, 03:02 AM
This reminds me, A few of the larger auctions that I went to had some fairly large Granite surface plates in the neighborhood of 2 feet thick 15-20 feet long x 10 feet.
Most that large sold for about $500 each and the only people buying them were the same company that manufactured them.

No doubt buying and re-certifying them.

By the sounds of what you are saying the factory may have reworked the anvil at some point of time and resold it, could it have been a larger anvil in a past life ?

Shade Tree Welder
06-08-2016, 04:43 AM
Jen the "Anvil geek"

Black Frog
06-08-2016, 08:27 AM
Hay-Budden offered a few different models with no shoulders at the table, a couple shown below from a 1914 HB catalog...
You could get it with or without the clip horn, with or without two pritchel holes.
Nice anvils you have there! :-)

allessence
06-08-2016, 11:52 AM
Hay-Budden offered a few different models with no shoulders at the table, a couple shown below from a 1914 HB catalog...
You could get it with or without the clip horn, with or without two pritchel holes.
Nice anvils you have there! :-)

Thanks.. I was hoping you would chime in..

Yeah, I've thought about that and have a farriers model..

This is different than the other farrier models I have seen..

It has a narrow horn and nearly 2 inches longer than standard.. All of the farriers models I have seen have a standard farriers tapered horn with a slightly flat horn top with the swell at the base of the truncated part..

This horn is fully rounded from the table to the tip and is dramatically butchered at the bottom shoulder with no blending. verses all the other HB anvils I have seen.

Also the table is 1/3 longer even though it has no clip horns and even long if it was to have clip horns..

The other thing is.. The waist is longer than any of the farriers or london models I have seen in the same weight class, as is the base.. The base is very wide and heavy...

You can see where the scale was imprinted during the forging process which is also kind of a difference..

You might be right but it still has some differences which perplex me still..

allessence
06-08-2016, 12:03 PM
This reminds me, A few of the larger auctions that I went to had some fairly large Granite surface plates in the neighborhood of 2 feet thick 15-20 feet long x 10 feet.
Most that large sold for about $500 each and the only people buying them were the same company that manufactured them.

No doubt buying and re-certifying them.

By the sounds of what you are saying the factory may have reworked the anvil at some point of time and resold it, could it have been a larger anvil in a past life ?

It's highly unlikely.. To modify and anvil this greatly there were be lots of tell tail signs.. The side weld seems would be gone there would be more folds from where the butchering tool was used...

The only way to get not side bosses where the table was is to start from a solid chunk.. These weren't butchered in then forged down..

( A butchering tool is a one sided cutting tool that forms a cut with a straight side and pushes the other side away so it can be flattened without creating a cold shut..)



Jen the "Anvil geek"

I'm ok with than handle... Really just an old fashioned blacksmith geek..

If it wasn't for women being treated so badly back then I'd of been a happy camper going back in time.. I have been reading lots of early journels and in one of them the shop owner was making 30,000.00 back in 1914.. That's like 500,000.00 a year now..

He was just shoeing horses, fixing wagons, and doing a little auto repair on the side..

LOL.. That's how or what I do now.. But I'm only making 30K a year.. And guess what.. Today that 30K is like making 10K...

Anyhow,, Funny right.. 150years to late..

I would have loved to have gone from anvil MFG's to MFG's and learned the process..

toprecycler
06-08-2016, 02:12 PM
Thanks.. I was hoping you would chime in.. Yeah, I've thought about that and have a farriers model.. This is different than the other farrier models I have seen.. It has a narrow horn and nearly 2 inches longer than standard.. All of the farriers models I have seen have a standard farriers tapered horn with a slightly flat horn top with the swell at the base of the truncated part.. This horn is fully rounded from the table to the tip and is dramatically butchered at the bottom shoulder with no blending. verses all the other HB anvils I have seen. Also the table is 1/3 longer even though it has no clip horns and even long if it was to have clip horns.. The other thing is.. The waist is longer than any of the farriers or london models I have seen in the same weight class, as is the base.. The base is very wide and heavy... You can see where the scale was imprinted during the forging process which is also kind of a difference.. You might be right but it still has some differences which perplex me still.. Could this anvil have been custom made to a customers order? Would be interesting to see if anyone has listing of serial numbers of these anvils and see who they went too.

Boy , I am learning a lot about anvils, or really learning how much I don't really know. Here I just thought an anvil was just something to beat on? Who would have thought that there is an anvil custom designed for every purpose?

Thanks for sharing Jenn

Brian

RancherBill
06-08-2016, 03:02 PM
Okay.. So this anvil is weirder than a monkey on a pigs back racing at the Kentucky derby..

They made another one.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.838752219543656.1073741861.235528466532704&type=3

What do you use the 'bump' for? I am drawing a blank. The only thing I can think of a use for fixed diameter bump is making coffee cup holders for buggys.:eek::devil: I know that's wrong.:D

allessence
06-08-2016, 06:32 PM
Could this anvil have been custom made to a customers order? Would be interesting to see if anyone has listing of serial numbers of these anvils and see who they went too.

Boy , I am learning a lot about anvils, or really learning how much I don't really know. Here I just thought an anvil was just something to beat on? Who would have thought that there is an anvil custom designed for every purpose?

Thanks for sharing Jenn

Brian
\
Anytime..

This is a neat one.. FYI all forged anvils were custom so to speak.. They were all hand forged up till the cast iron or cast steel ones started to show up...

Funny thing is anvils were classified in a weight class.. 100, 150, 175, 200, 250.. Etc, etc.. Since they were sold by the pound.. If you ordered a 200lbs anvil you might get a 190 or a 210lbs since they were forged out of a chunk..

In the book" Anvils in America" it does offer a serial number to a year for Hay Budden anvils.. If there was a list of who the anvils were sent to and what size it was, it would be worth quite a bit. Anvils for the most part don't travel very far.. Or at least they used not to..

Now not so much..

allessence
06-08-2016, 06:36 PM
They made another one.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.838752219543656.1073741861.235528466532704&type=3

What do you use the 'bump' for? I am drawing a blank. The only thing I can think of a use for fixed diameter bump is making coffee cup holders for buggys.:eek::devil: I know that's wrong.:D

The bump is for forming clips on a horse shoe.. A clip is a way to distribute weight bearing to the outside hoof wall vs just to the nails which go into the inner surface of the hoof wall..

The picture on the site is a true farriers anvil.. Very narrow faces since horse shoes aren't that wide and even a draft shoe from heel to toe can be 6" or so.. But the majority of horses are pleasure sized horses.. (IE riding)..

In that picture you can see it has the traditional Hay Budden thin waist..

Ironman
06-09-2016, 12:05 AM
Jen, as you are the Official Blacksmith of SFT:D here is a project for you to leave your mark in history.
Make one of these in the JEN Pattern, and people will be lugging it from pillar to post a hundred years from now.

allessence
06-09-2016, 04:49 AM
Jen, as you are the Official Blacksmith of SFT:D here is a project for you to leave your mark in history.
Make one of these in the JEN Pattern, and people will be lugging it from pillar to post a hundred years from now.

A well documented process... I've often thought about making a fabricated anvil and it might still be what I end up doing. As its simple, straight forwards and you can add anything you like..

But ideally I'd love to forge one out.. If I can ever get the shop up I'll put in a dedicated anvil forge and I figure a 200 to 300ton hydraulic press would be able to move a 5-6" wide chunck of metal..

It will be a double horn model.. Ideally with a side shelf but this is really tough to put in a forged anvil which is of one piece construction..

Would be a forged top with fabricated base...

This is where a cast steel anvil has it all over the forged model..

Black Frog
06-09-2016, 09:20 AM
\
FYI all forged anvils were custom so to speak.. They were all hand forged up till the cast iron or cast steel ones started to show up...


Depends on the definition of "hand forged". That can mean completely by hand and power hammer? Trenton and Arm&Hammer were forging anvils up to 1950 ballpark. Peter Wrights were were forged by hand until they installed their hammers. Mouse Hole anvils had water powered hammers for a very long time. Fisher had the cast iron with steel face started in the 1840's. Swedish cast steel has been around for a very long time.

Makers had somewhat of a basic dimension layout of weights. But that was just a rough guide. I've been keeping a database of hundreds and hundreds of anvils from each major manufacturer. Weight, length, width, height... It is eye-opening to look down the list and see some huge variances in dimensions for a particular weight range.

mccutter
06-09-2016, 10:03 AM
Anvils for the most part don't travel very far...

Until you came on the scene! :D ;)

allessence
06-09-2016, 11:25 AM
Depends on the definition of "hand forged". That can mean completely by hand and power hammer? Trenton and Arm&Hammer were forging anvils up to 1950 ballpark. Peter Wrights were were forged by hand until they installed their hammers. Mouse Hole anvils had water powered hammers for a very long time. Fisher had the cast iron with steel face started in the 1840's. Swedish cast steel has been around for a very long time.

Makers had somewhat of a basic dimension layout of weights. But that was just a rough guide. I've been keeping a database of hundreds and hundreds of anvils from each major manufacturer. Weight, length, width, height... It is eye-opening to look down the list and see some huge variances in dimensions for a particular weight range.

I consider any anvil forged (except closed die forged) to be hand forged... Using a hammer whether it be hand or mechanical if the item is manipulated using a persons eye to create the desired outcome.. It's hand forged..

Some would enter in semantics as to what constitutes hand forged vs machine forged, etc, etc vs open die forged vs closed die forged and myself I would consider an open die forged anvil as hand forged since the dies only gave a partial shape vs closed dies which give just about a true to size/shape product..

Yup, i agree.. Ton's and ton's of variations. Part of taking a chunk of a given weight and handing it to someone and saying we want this to look like this and weigh this but it's up to you to figure it out.

Personally I can make 1 of something in no time at all.. I consider 1 of something that does not have to match as perfectly as hand made can..

Being hand made there is always variation in a finished product, But if skilled enough they will look about the same though all different.. It's hand made..

But, if they have to look all the same, with all the same dimensions and be an exact copy then it becomes a matter of selective forging and is 3 to 4 times more time consuming and is expensive..

So, one can pay for an exact hand made copy for 3 to 4X the cost or just have a there abouts copy.. And this is what anvils are.. A there abouts copy..

With that being said.. There are also a huge amount of similarity ( or markers is what I call them) for a given anvil manufacturer.. I can identify the HB's 2 peice designs wether they are farriers, plows, standard.. etc, etc. For they all share the same basic shape and design parameters..

Just as the earlier HB's have a different look than the Peterwrights.. Etc, etc..

I would imagine other people feel the same way about their anvils of choice..

Here is a picture of 10 thumb latches.. They look pretty damn close to the same.. But they are all different..

So since we are getting in deep.. A smith producing the same thing over and over and over again like in a thumb latch factory or a chain factory or any factory that the smith was only forging one product day in and day out he could produce a pretty good copy in about the same time as a 1 off because it become routine and he knows the job very well..

A truly talented and skilled smith can forge anything to a required size.. It becomes whether it's worth it or not to get to that size and the extra money it takes..

The sizing on the page specified in the HB catalog are the basic sizes as specified for a given weight.. I have found in maybe 30HB anvils it is true.. An 1/8" here or there added or removed to me means little..

You can also see where if there wasn't enough material in the tail section where they thinned it down to get the length they needed to meet those spec's..

You can also see where they left a tail thicker when the length requirement was met..

So, I'd love to see a copy of the information you have collected.. Would be neat to see how the information I have compares..

Anyhow, It's all perspective and it's probably the only thing I really enjoy about history..


I've attached a picture of 10 latches which are hand made.. I would imagine they are within a few grams weight wise to each other.. They were all forged to shape from the end of a bar that was not pre-cut to length..

Just finish one blank (which is the basic shape), cut off, move to the next one.. Just sayin..

Black Frog
06-09-2016, 12:09 PM
I totally agree that manufacturers each had their distinctive shapes to their anvils. Can spot them a mile away. My point was that some of their "charts" for anvils size and dimensions are not really to be relied upon as gospel, and can actually be way off.

For instance, in my database I've recorded a 32" Trenton that was 311#, and another 32" Trenton that was 192#. Huge difference.

Another Trenton being 26" at 111#, and then a different 24" Trenton at 165#..... Of course face width and height factor in as well. They all "look" like Trentons, but their sizing and proportions can span quite a large range.

Anvils are addicting.... :)

allessence
06-09-2016, 05:34 PM
I totally agree that manufacturers each had their distinctive shapes to their anvils. Can spot them a mile away. My point was that some of their "charts" for anvils size and dimensions are not really to be relied upon as gospel, and can actually be way off.

For instance, in my database I've recorded a 32" Trenton that was 311#, and another 32" Trenton that was 192#. Huge difference.

Another Trenton being 26" at 111#, and then a different 24" Trenton at 165#..... Of course face width and height factor in as well. They all "look" like Trentons, but their sizing and proportions can span quite a large range.

Anvils are addicting.... :)

Sure, sure..

On the Trentons were they both Made here? I'd love to see pictures..

Trenton also did the weird base thing as well so I guess that makes sense..

Whitetrash
06-09-2016, 07:13 PM
You'll just have to put one of these in your shop. :) Bet you could forge a 1000 lb anvil if it tickled your fancy. :D :devil:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-7bz7bmDg4