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Spencer
12-29-2005, 08:28 PM
I would like some opinions on how to cut the new metal siding I bought for my pole barn. I am no stranger to cutting metal and I have many different tools to do just that. I have attached a page out of the "Helpful Hints For Post Fram BUilding Construction" that Menards hands out to its cutstomers. The metal siding has ribs every 9" and that is what has me wondering which tool to use. I cut lots of metal, but nothing that is ribbed. I don't think my Milwaukee electric shears will handle the ribs very well. My Ingersoll Rand pnuematic nibbler can surely handle the ribs, but that tools is slow and the thousands of little half moons that it creates are a pain. It is also not real easy to cut in a straight line using the nibbler. I have circular saws, angle grinders, a die grinder, plasma cutters, etc., but all of these create heat. About the only power tools that I can think of that don't creat a lot of heat are a jig saw and a sawzall, which I also own. I don't see how hand powered tin snips would handle the ribs very well and I am not a fan of any tool that doesn't plug in.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks, Spence

dcs
12-29-2005, 08:48 PM
They make hand and foot operated shears that are designed to fit the ribs on the siding. Thats the best way. Rental shops might have them, or ebay maybe. Menards or home depot might even have one to rent

Some guys use regular tin snips, but its a messy cut & it sucks if you need to do a hundred of them. Abrasive blades for skill saws work & some guys use a regular carbide blade flipped over so the teeth are backwards. Both the skill saw ways are noisy & crude.

Dman033189
12-29-2005, 10:42 PM
When we did our barn we just used cheap plywood blades in a circular saw it eats them up fast but it was our best option, it might be worth a try.

X-ray
12-29-2005, 11:38 PM
Good reason to look into these kind've saws methinks;

http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5381&highlight=evolution

DDA52
12-30-2005, 01:00 AM
Clarke makes a small 7" cold skil type saw..same type as the Evolution saws. Saw it the other day in Tractor Supply for 100 bucks. And the blade is included. :)

hobby_welder71
12-30-2005, 03:04 AM
fien nibbers best way to go when cutting this type of metal sheets strait cut good and fast little slower on the half moon cut though but they are the best elec. nibber for the job but not cheep

AntiBling
12-30-2005, 03:27 AM
We used a electric nibbler on ours, for awhile. For the long stretches it actually cut pretty fast, but when it got to the ribs is when it was slow and awkward cutting. The shears wouldnt even touch the ribs without flattening them.

fluxcore
12-30-2005, 05:06 AM
guy's that so this day in and day out , use a gas cut off saw. goos luck, Jim

tntemroper
12-30-2005, 08:00 AM
i use my plasma cutter and it works great. On 26 guage tin it cuts it like butter and the tin dont get hot enough to hurt even painted metal

moe1942
12-30-2005, 08:02 AM
Air operated shears are my solution. I tried nibblers and it was a no go. Metal cutting blade in a skill saw made a mess of the cut. Jig saw bad idea right off the bat.

The shears I have will eat through 18 ga. sheet like butter. Good control and straight cut with 2x4 guide.

Hope this helps..

Spencer
12-30-2005, 12:10 PM
Good reason to look into these kind've saws methinks;

http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5381&highlight=evolution

I read through that thread and looked around a little bit on the internet. The Evolution saw looks impressive, but who sells them? I was hoping to get started on the steel pretty soon.

Spence

Dman033189
12-30-2005, 12:25 PM
I just bought Milwaukee's version (http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=27&catalogId=40027&langId=-1&productId=284450&mainHeader=Tools&categoryId=189345&mainCategoryId=362&parentProd=281173) of that saw and I have been very happy with it, I just bought mine at the local welding shop so it was no trouble getting it. The only thing I wasnt sure about is the Milwaukee is fixed at 90 degrees and the evolution is adjustable but I decided for my use it wasnt needed.

fatfrank
12-30-2005, 01:34 PM
I bet the craftsman twin cutter would work really well in this application.

kcir
12-30-2005, 01:35 PM
You can get it here on Amazon.

Evolution Metal Saw (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006GDLXQ/qid=1135967614/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl60/002-0183943-6177602?n=507846&s=hi&v=glance)

No shipping and no tax.

Rick

X-ray
12-30-2005, 02:47 PM
I read through that thread and looked around a little bit on the internet. The Evolution saw looks impressive, but who sells them? I was hoping to get started on the steel pretty soon.

Spence

Here is one internet vendor-
https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:terms::PW

dirtdigger
12-30-2005, 03:14 PM
I have the Clarke metal (skill saw type) but I wasnt used to it, plus it was noisy and hard to do a good job (maybe it was the operator :confused: ) so I ended up using my Matabo cutting wheel. worked fine. It didnt seem to hurt the paint, but we'll see in a few years. I did a few sheets with the hand powered tin snips but that took too long.

tackit
12-30-2005, 03:45 PM
these look like they would work pretty good on siding.

http://www.7corners.com/7c_store/showdetl.cfm?DID=1&offerings_ID=2035095882&ObjectGroup_ID=-972353837&CATID=1087832140

Spencer
12-30-2005, 04:49 PM
Thanks everybody for the information. I went out to my local welding supply shop to see what they had in stock. They offer the Evolution, but it is sold as a MK Morse Evolution. They had the 180 in stock which came with the saw, steel blade, and plastic case for around $325. The 180 didn't look to impressive once I looked closely at it. The darn this is even made in China, well Tawain (Republic of China).

I went over to Graingers to see if they had the Milwaukee saw in stock, but they didn't. Dman, can you check out your Milwaukee saw and see where it is made?

Dman033189
12-30-2005, 05:03 PM
Well unlike I hoped mine isn't made in USA but it still seems well built to me.

X-ray
12-30-2005, 06:12 PM
There is a promotional video of these types of saws here
http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/euro/euroevolution180xtreme.htm

Did not expect to find such a tool of North American manufacture, so went looking for watt/amp motor differences and price differences.

hobby_welder71
12-31-2005, 02:26 AM
the fein nibbers are going to be your best bet for the sheeting you are using i was working for a const. company until about 4 mouth ago and this is what we did metal siding take alook http://www.feinus.com/p/newnibbler/nibblermain.htm we done the siding for nissan in canton,ms and stinis, tn hynda, in mongomary, al

Spencer
01-01-2006, 01:53 PM
Here is one internet vendor-
https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:terms::PW

X-Ray, have you dealt with this retailer before? I guess if I am going to order one I may as well get the 230Xtreme. I can buy that online from Weldingsupply with a blade for only $65 more than I can get the regular 180 for. I would just buy the Milwaukee if it was made in the USA.

X-ray
01-01-2006, 02:30 PM
X-Ray, have you dealt with this retailer before? I guess if I am going to order one I may as well get the 230Xtreme. I can buy that online from Weldingsupply with a blade for only $65 more than I can get the regular 180 for. I would just buy the Milwaukee if it was made in the USA.


Yes I have, and the website is buggy, but they are not just internet middle men, there is a brick-n-motar welding store (not verified firsthand).

That sale price for the 230x is nice, everyone else is still selling that thing at retail. It does not come with a blade extra $40...

When these saws first hit the market, evolution was the only game in town, the ones that followed looked to have come from the same factory, the two extreme models, have a couple unique features, and the 230 is the only 9" one I have seen on the web. Now I dont know if this size is going to be an issue for what you are planning on doing or if the smaller 180extreme would be better suited. The 230 seems like the better deal sales wise at least that is the one I whipped out the visa for(ordered prior to posting sale incase quantitys were limited,not here yet) ;)

Sberry
01-01-2006, 11:20 PM
I am going to get the battery saw when it comes out. I have cut sheets every way you can imagine, elecric shears, nibblers, plasma works well especially where the cuts are buried. I have cut several at a time this way and I cut 10 at a time with sawzall. I have cross cut a lot of sheets with electric shears. I am going to get them battery when they come.

quadlinear
01-02-2006, 12:17 AM
You have sure changed my opinion on Battery powered tools. Perhaps I'll go the new route, I just have way too many of the 18V dewalt stuff now. Batts don't last long and I've had a few go bad! Otherwise no complaints.

Al

Spencer
01-02-2006, 09:35 AM
I am going to get the battery saw when it comes out. I have cut sheets every way you can imagine, elecric shears, nibblers, plasma works well especially where the cuts are buried. I have cut several at a time this way and I cut 10 at a time with sawzall. I have cross cut a lot of sheets with electric shears. I am going to get them battery when they come.

Sberry, how well does the electric shear handle the ribs in the steel? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like it would have trouble on the ribs.

Spencer
01-02-2006, 09:36 AM
(ordered prior to posting sale incase quantitys were limited,not here yet) ;)

I just called this morning and they do not have any in stock.

Sberry
01-02-2006, 10:04 AM
As for cutting with electric shears, well, it works across the ribs but would work much better on pole barn steel. The ribs are much lower. This stuff I am using is tuff. I bought an electric shear at Menards for 89$ and it works fairly well,, and for 89 I say its worth the chance, so far so good, its not for old women but it can be done, this steel is way heavier and is hi rib, seems I cut some barn steel,,, cant remember but I am sure it would work well. The evolution seems like a bit of overkill unless you were cutting multiple sheets on a regular basis. As for the battery tools so far I am throughly impressed. The tool selection in 28v is limited yet, as fast as these are selling they will make it full line shortly. Tools interest me as much as the next guy but I could buy a new welding machine, plug it in and not turn it on for a week or until I needed it but I am kind of stoked about these new battery tools. I am sure it wont be long before someone comes with the next best thing for half the cost but these have paid for themselves already and I am half done with one job. I was up and down ladders like a yo-yo, I have done this same job before and there is no comparison, way less on the frustration scale. The belt clip works very well, I havnt ever found anything that does as good as this.

Spencer
01-02-2006, 02:05 PM
I have attached a page out of Menard's "Helpful Hints For Constructing Your Post Fram Building".

Please read the page and explain why:

1. They want you cut off most of the first rib, leaving only 1/4" of the rib (as shown in Fig. 1)

2. When hanging the endwall steel (gable ends) why do they want you to start in the middle and work out both ways from there. Because of the way the panels overlap each other and need to fit inside the upper j-channel, starting from the middle seems harder.

X-ray
01-02-2006, 02:28 PM
I just called this morning and they do not have any in stock.


Yeah, I got the reciept of order, but not a UPS tracking #, so I figured they were out. But time is on my side this time, because I was just taking advantage of the sale price and can wait a few :cool:

T_Bone
01-02-2006, 05:25 PM
Maybe I can shed some light on the subject.

Shears:

Double cut shear: Here you have a center blade moving between two outer stationary blades. The waste is a 1/4" thin strip of metal 1/4" wide. The sheeting to be cut does not have to be strees relieved as the cut is made, meaning the 1/4" strip releaves the stress of the finished metal.

Uni-Shears: These cut like a pair of hand sissors. There is no cut material waste like the double cuts. The sheeting has to be lifted as you cut to stress relieve (shear binding) the seam being cut as one piece of material goes below the cutting shoe and one piece rides above the cutting shoe. Usually the cut waste has to be rolled up to relieve the shear binding as the cut is being made.


Neither of these cutters work really well while cutting ribbed sheeting. The double cuts work the best but you would need to cut from both sides of the sheeting when cutting the rib area.

Due too the way the metal has to be moved during the cut, to use either type of shear, you will have to reform the metal shape with a dolly and wooden hammer for a pefect finish look. This is a fast easy process.

Another faster way is to cut the sheeting with a abrasive blade, 6"round x 3/32" thick using a Makita 5" side grinder. You stack several sheets together and tightly clamp them together, then cut, then debur with a hand rasp, then seal the cut with paint (if needed).

Doesn't matter if you make the cut with a shear or with a abrasive blade as the end metal will be exposed after cutting. I never found this to be a problem so very few take the time to seal the cut edge. The edge of the cut sheeting is always covered with a piece of counter flashing for a water tight seal.

If you want your sheeting to stay on for many years, use screws with washers, not nails. Nails will always pull out over time as the sheeting is always moving as the wind always pulls on the sheeting.

If you want extra Lap seam holding stregth, use Butyl caulking. Be fore warned that the sheeting will never come apart without cutting the SM if you use Butyl.

Sberry
01-02-2006, 09:33 PM
I do use double shears to cut one shot one direction, its a bit of work and not for the faint of arm but it does work.

Spencer
01-03-2006, 03:25 PM
Yeah, I got the reciept of order, but not a UPS tracking #, so I figured they were out. But time is on my side this time, because I was just taking advantage of the sale price and can wait a few :cool:

Yesterday when I called Weldingsupply.com the guy on the phone said that he wasn't the best person to talk to about the Evolution saw. So I called back today and asked for the best person to talk to about the saw. After talking to a couple guys and being put on hold, one of the guys got back on the phone and told me that they indeed did have the 230Xtreme in stock. Then I inquired about the steel cutting blade and he said that it would take him a while to see if they had that in stock. So we agreed that I would call him back in a few minutes. When I called back I spoke with yet another person because the last guy I had been talking to went to lunch. This person told me that they don't carry the saws or the blades in their store, they have them dropped shipped to the customers. He said that Weldingsupply.com orders them from another business near Chicago and that company then forwards that order on to the distributor who then drop ships the saw out to the customer. He estimates it takes 7 to 10 business days for the customer to receive the shipment. It is a good price on the saw, but I don't want to wait that long, nor do I like the idea of two different businesses between me and the company actually shipping the product out.

I found another online retailer that actually has the 9" saw in stock (so they say). I told them that I only wanted to order the saw if they actually had the saw and could ship it out UPS today. I heard him get on his Nextel and 2-way the shipping department. The shipping department said that if he hurried up and processed the order then they should be able to get it out today. I went ahead and ordered the kit, this is the M.K. Morse version of the 9" Evolution saw. The kit comes with the 9" steel cutting blade and a case for $425 (no shipping or tax). That is almost $40 more that the saw and blade from Weldingsupply.com, but at least it comes with the case. Also, Weldingsupply.com said shipping costs would be between $7.50-15.00. I've already received an email with an order confirmation, hopefully they will email me the tracking number later today.

Spencer
01-03-2006, 03:29 PM
Sberry, did you check out that page I posted out of Menards book?

Page From Menards Book (http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8635)

Do you know why they want me to cut off all but 1/4" of the first rib of steel or why they want me to starting hanging steel in the middle of the gable end and work out both directions?

I'd appreciate any tips you could give me.

Thanks, Spence

X-ray
01-03-2006, 06:30 PM
Sounds good Spencer, one cannot have too many ways to slice-n-dice metal :cool:

Sberry
01-03-2006, 09:20 PM
The rib on the corners of the building may not fit under the corner trim if left on,, is this what you are talking about? I have been sheeting left to right and the sheets should be lapped according to the prevailing winds. I think they may feel if you start in the middle the possibility for error may be reduced but we sheeted to the door jambs and filled it in after, they all mated fine whenn I got there. I layed out marks on the base and centered the rib on each one, actually I could start on each end and sheet to the middle, really each sheet has its place according to the layout marks and they will mate fine. Lay out lines on the base, locate the sheet, use a locater a screw on the leading edge and then take a 4 ft level and plumb each sheet, hold it with a locator on the top leading edge, then I screw backwards and allow it to creep if needed to the previous sheet, always plum the leading edge each sheet, make up any error on every sheet, dont throw up 10 sheets before checking and depend on the ribs for allignment, I creep each one plumb, these were close. A building with shorter sheets and shorter runs would be a bit more forgiving, 2 of these walls are 100 ft long and if you dont keep on your toes its easy to get accumulated error quickly.

T_Bone
01-04-2006, 04:49 AM
Sberry, did you check out that page I posted out of Menards book?

Page From Menards Book (http://www.shopfloortalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8635)

Do you know why they want me to cut off all but 1/4" of the first rib of steel or why they want me to starting hanging steel in the middle of the gable end and work out both directions?

I'd appreciate any tips you could give me.

Thanks, Spence

...I think they may feel if you start in the middle the possibility for error may be reduced but we sheeted to the door jambs and filled it in after, they all mated fine whenn I got there...

Hi Spence,

The reason they want you to start laying sheeting in the center of the ends, is you can push in on the ribs as your screwing the sheeting down, thus grow the sheeting span ratio more than it was designed for, anotherwords making it a slightly wider sheet. Thin gauge sheeting is effected more than heavy gauge sheeting but even 16ga sheeting will be expanded over design span width if your not careful.

If you started from one end (side) then when you get to the other end you would then have to trim one piece for the final fit. When you stand back then your sheeting would look terrible lop sided on one side as the trimed rib would stand out like a sore thumb.

If you start in the center and work both ways, you will likely have about the same to trim off on both sides, thus when you stand back, your ribs will be evenly spaced on both sides of the building.

You always can tell a professional skeeter from a amature sheeter with this one mistake. ;) When you see that mistake, you automicaly look for more mistakes, just like you do looking at a weld. :D

Some rib designs, it helps start the first sheet by trimming off most of the rib. All depends on the rib design and if the corners are counter flashed. If the corners are counter flashed, then the first sheet usually doesn't have to be cut.

Anyways thats what they taught me after 40yrs in the SM trade :cool:

Sberry
01-04-2006, 09:49 AM
On this metal building it is critical that they go where they are sposed to. As TBone said, sheets will creep, these we are using are not bad but we installed some trim flash that was really flattenned so we creep each joint back to the line. The ribs on this match with all the openings, they dont land random. I am sure Tbone does this the same way but I know where its all going before putting the first one up.

Spencer
01-04-2006, 11:18 AM
Thanks TBone & Sberry, you cleared up a lot for me.

TBone, the part about the outer sheets makes sense now, but I did not order my steel to take that into consideration. I guess that means my barn will look like a rookie did it, which is ok because a rookie is doing it. The instructions in the book tell me to only screw on the flats of the metal until all the sheets are up on that wall and then go back and put screws in the ribs. I guess that is to help prevent the sheets from creeping.

Sberry, I will try your method of plumbing the leading edge of each sheet and working backwards - Thanks.

Spencer
01-04-2006, 11:43 AM
Sounds good Spencer, one cannot have too many ways to slice-n-dice metal :cool:

Like Sberry said earlier, an Evolution saw is probably overkill for just pole barn metal. I don't plan on throwing the saw away when I am done with my barn though. I am sure I will find many uses for it in the future. I've been cutting sheet metal for over 16 years as part of my job. I have aquired almost every common tool I can think of to cut metal, but I still did not feel like I had the right tool to cut this metal because it is ribbed and painted.

I did get my UPS shipping information yesterday afternoon and the saw should be here on Thursday.

It looks like the version from M.K. Morse is quite a bit different from the original Evolution 230Xtreme. Many differences may only be cosmetic with the exception of the lack of the laser on the M.K.

I have attached a .gif image to show the diffence in appearance.

Spencer
01-05-2006, 12:19 PM
The saw showed up today, right on time. Disregard that picture I posted yesterday that showed the difference between the M.K. Morse version and the original Hitech Evolution 230Xtreme. The cardboard box that this came in is just the original 230Xtreme box with a Morse sticker up on the corner. So all Morse is doing is opening the box and putting in one of their blades and some literature. This kit came with the standard 48 tooth blade for cutting mild steel stock. I also ordered a 68 tooth blade for cutting thin steel, but that won't be here until tomorrow.

This 9" saw is huge! I'm sure it would be easier to use the 7" version on my pole barn steel, but I didn't want to regret not getting the 9" version later on.

I'll try to post some pictures in the next couple of days.

dirtdigger
01-05-2006, 12:23 PM
what thicknes of mild steel can these saws cut? I have the cheapo clake version (7" I think) but no book or instructions. never used one, so I've been a bit nervous about cutting into a peice of steel with a circ saw. goes against all I've been taught (with wood saws that is)

Spencer
01-05-2006, 12:36 PM
The poor excuse for an owners manual that this came with says:

Optimum cutting thickness is 1/2" mild steel plate with a 30 minute duty cycle.

Spencer
01-05-2006, 05:05 PM
Well it's a good thing that M.K. Morse has a 60-day return policy. I can't believe that this circular saw has no lever to manually retract the blade guard. The blade guard gets hung up on the side of the sheet metal when you try to make a cut. There is no way to ever make any kind of plunge cut with this saw. I've only cut one sheet of metal so far, but my first impressions are not good ones.

grumpy
01-05-2006, 06:38 PM
Everybody here, well not everybody, has been talking about the Evo saw. Well I got one from a welding supply store. It's the 180x. I looked at the 230 and was impressed but the size of that monster just turned me off. What would a part timer do with a 9 inch metal cutting saw.

I've got some 1/4" to cut this weekend and I will let you know what I think about the machine. Hopefully this will replace my wood saw (el cheapo) and my el cheapo portable band saw. We'll see. :)

X-ray
01-06-2006, 03:39 PM
Hey Spencer, got the saw today and it is on the big side. Everything showed up from OKi Berring out've Texas somewhere .

Have not used this yet, but think the 180 size may be the way to go..
Cannot find any 'made in' markings either on the saw or blades, but judging by the quality of plastic and chrome it has made in China all over it :rolleyes:

But so be it, will put it to some use asap.

hobby_welder71
01-06-2006, 05:25 PM
Hey Spencer, got the saw today and it is on the big side. Everything showed up from OKi Berring out've Texas somewhere .

Have not used this yet, but think the 180 size may be the way to go..
Cannot find any 'made in' markings either on the saw or blades, but judging by the quality of plastic and chrome it has made in China all over it :rolleyes:

But so be it, will put it to some use asap.
which saw did you get

X-ray
01-06-2006, 06:05 PM
which saw did you get

The Evolution 230.

hobby_welder71
01-06-2006, 07:44 PM
is that a 7 1/4"?

X-ray
01-06-2006, 09:33 PM
is that a 7 1/4"?


It is the 9" blade model.

hobby_welder71
01-06-2006, 10:35 PM
bigger than the one we used it was 8 or 8 1/4 but we used a 7 1/4 metal star blade which i could push it right through any metal panel that we hung have seen up to a 1/4 " angle cut with just cant find any thing on this sawblade on the net to see if they have any other sizes but it beat any other blade they tried i think they said that they could get them at home depot but never seen them was told you have to ask for them .......just thought you might want to know

Spencer
01-09-2006, 01:24 PM
Hey Spencer, got the saw today and it is on the big side. Everything showed up from OKi Berring out've Texas somewhere .

Have not used this yet, but think the 180 size may be the way to go..
Cannot find any 'made in' markings either on the saw or blades, but judging by the quality of plastic and chrome it has made in China all over it :rolleyes:

But so be it, will put it to some use asap.

X-ray, which blade did you buy with your saw (# teeth)? Does the blade have the Evolution name on it?

Spence

X-ray
01-09-2006, 01:38 PM
X-ray, which blade did you buy with your saw (# teeth)? Does the blade have the Evolution name on it?

Spence

yes and 48 teeth

W-Cummins
01-28-2006, 12:11 AM
Hi Spence,

The reason they want you to start laying sheeting in the center of the ends, is you can push in on the ribs as your screwing the sheeting down, thus grow the sheeting span ratio more than it was designed for, anotherwords making it a slightly wider sheet. Thin gauge sheeting is effected more than heavy gauge sheeting but even 16ga sheeting will be expanded over design span width if your not careful.

If you started from one end (side) then when you get to the other end you would then have to trim one piece for the final fit. When you stand back then your sheeting would look terrible lop sided on one side as the trimed rib would stand out like a sore thumb.

If you start in the center and work both ways, you will likely have about the same to trim off on both sides, thus when you stand back, your ribs will be evenly spaced on both sides of the building.

You always can tell a professional skeeter from a amature sheeter with this one mistake. ;) When you see that mistake, you automicaly look for more mistakes, just like you do looking at a weld. :D


I guess I'm guilty as I started at one end as per the instructions. I had enough problems steeting the building by my self

bgott
01-29-2006, 12:18 AM
You did that by yourself? You're just a little hard headed, eh? :D I've been known to do that occationally.

W-Cummins
01-29-2006, 03:21 AM
You did that by yourself? You're just a little hard headed, eh? :D I've been known to do that occationally.


Yes I did sheet the walls (50'100'X16') by myself, And no I wouldn't do it again!! here is a link (http://www.garagejunkies.net/showthread.php?t=2235) to some of the write up