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grumpy
06-21-2004, 09:32 PM
Did it this time. Had to remove a lower shock bolt to find out why the shock was hitting the frame. Broke the bolt off inside the axle (1992 Dodge Grand Caravan). Well I drilled out part of the bolt and tried a screw/bolt extractor. Broke that too (also inside the drilled out bolt). How what do I do? Thought about welding a nut to the bolt but not enough of a purchase. And my welding skills are that good either.

Has anyone ever done this before? How did you get the bolt out? I though about drilling the entire thing and cutting new threads with a larger bolt but I not sure that would be the best alternative. Oh, BTW it is metric.

Any suggestions? :(

Crithpy Critter
06-21-2004, 09:40 PM
somewhere in the bowels of my shop I remember taking an air gun extention and welding a stud remover to it.

then I remember drilling a hole in the bolt and then leaning heavy on the air gun and the bolt was out in 2 seconds...

my plan B was nuclear explosives.
.
.
.

Stickman
06-21-2004, 09:57 PM
Sorry to say that if you have already been drilling away at it you are in for more hard work and bad language. :( Next time you break off a bolt try this; Take a flat washer with a hole that is just a little smaller than the diameter of the bolt and weld it on to the bolt (plug weld). This is a lot easier than trying to weld inside a nut. Grind the weld flat with the washer and then weld on another one. After four or five washers you will have what amouts to a new head on the bolt. Now weld on a nut either on the inside or outside, whichever is easiest. This process takes just long enough to thoroughly heat the whole bolt which in most cases will loosen up the rust enough to get it out.

Sorry that I can't help you with the problem that you have now.

JohnDeere
06-21-2004, 10:02 PM
Did it this time. Had to remove a lower shock bolt to find out why the shock was hitting the frame. Broke the bolt off inside the axle (1992 Dodge Grand Caravan). Well I drilled out part of the bolt and tried a screw/bolt extractor. Broke that too (also inside the drilled out bolt). How what do I do? Thought about welding a nut to the bolt but not enough of a purchase. And my welding skills are that good either.

Has anyone ever done this before? How did you get the bolt out? I though about drilling the entire thing and cutting new threads with a larger bolt but I not sure that would be the best alternative. Oh, BTW it is metric.

Any suggestions? :(

If you do try to drill it all out and cut new threads youll have to get a special drill bit to drill that easy out, and its not cheap... So unless you want to go buy a drill bit id think of somthin else...

- John Deere

MotorDoctor
06-21-2004, 11:54 PM
You may want to consider somebody else in your town that has a EDM machine to burn out that EZout. Out here on the left coast there a quite a few people that specialize in removing bolts/EZout/drill bits/etc. Myself, the majority of the work I do with my TIG welder is removing broken off bolts. I do that by welding a stalagmite onto the broken off bolt and then working the bolt with a pair of vice grips. Kroil penetrant works pretty good with this method. The down side to this method is if it won't come loose the damn bolt gets harder than the hubs of hell and is about impossible to drill. You can heat it up and let it cool slowly and hopefully it will anneal enough to drill. All my stuff is broken off in aluminum.

Franz
06-22-2004, 12:09 AM
I've been meanin to get around to tryin this idea, but somehow I haven't managed to need it since I found this web site http://pico-systems.com/edm.html

Now, my thinkin is I could eliminate the power supply by substituting the TIG power supply, and see if I get away with it.

banzaitoyota
06-22-2004, 06:41 AM
I always start conservitive. If it has a nub I weld on the washer and the nut. If not start off with a LEFT handed drill bit

grumpy
06-22-2004, 07:38 AM
Banzaitoyota why a left hand drill? :confused: Oh, I did manage to get the extractor out--big hammer and pin punch--popped right out. Okay I guess I'll have to weld, well I can't there's nothing to weld to (at least I can file this away on my hard, okay mushy hard drive). What about heating what is left? Now my question is: If I heat the part of the axle where the bolt is located what shrinks first, the bolt or the axle. And if I let it cool, in air or quenching with water, etc, what gives first? Hey, can I ship the axle to one of you guy's and you and get it out for me? Turn-around time about one day huh? :) :)
Banzaitoyoa, Franz, MotorDoctor, JohnDeere, Stickman, and Crithpy_Critter thanks for the assistance. I just think I'm getting a little too old to be lying on the ground trying to fix old cars. I'll let you know what happens.

banzaitoyota
06-22-2004, 08:18 AM
90% of the time a left handed drill bit will back a broken bolt right out instead of using an easy out. You have to drill the hole anyway, why not get some work out of it? :rolleyes:

grumpy
06-22-2004, 09:27 AM
banzai . . .

Good point. Never thought of it in quite that manner. Thanks.

david_r
06-24-2004, 05:32 AM
MotorDoctor,
If you're sure you are working with aluminum and not a magnesium alloy, nitric acid will react with steel but not aluminum. Of course, I'm not sure you can buy it these days on the left coast.

TheFrenchCanadian
06-24-2004, 12:08 PM
Hey Grumpy, how goes the battle with the broken bolt? Give us an update when you get out from under that minivan!! :D

'Ol Pilot
06-24-2004, 12:31 PM
Well, if you can find some high strength nitric acid, just mix it with some sulfuric acid and glycerine. Boil it up on the stove to concentrate it, yeah, that's the ticket! The resulting product is guaranteed to take out that bolt (along with the stove and half the neighborhood).

Seriously, if you go after that broken EZ-Out with a drill, you'll need a carbide bit. High speed steel, Ti coated are all peanut butter and even cobalt won't hack it. A couple of tricks - spin that bit as fast as possible and watch the temperatures. Carbide is typically silver soldered on so if you hit 1100-1200 degrees, you'll be in trouble. Next, don't use a coolant unless you start with a coolant. Thermal shock can fracture the carbide. Also, if you "break through" while drilling with any appeciable load, expect to break the carbide. Carbide doesn't like thermal or sudden impact shock.

'Rotsa 'Ruck, as they say in Japan.

grumpy
06-24-2004, 03:21 PM
Update: Yesterday tried American brand easy out instead of Chinese. Didn't break the blame thing just twisted it. Used heat and another easy out--no dice. Heated it some more and tried the old cape chisel bang it out--no go again. Today I took the day off.

I kinda suspect that the cumulative forces of the shock not moving properly and the stresses involved in hitting pot holes may have just created deeper threads and it's now solid. Also looked at the bolt head. Looks as if there was an initiation point on the bolt and approximately 1/3 of the bolt had beach marks and no matter how delicate we would have been would have been useless the bolt would just have broken anyway.

Lesson learned: From now on if my son or I cannot break the bond with either an impact gun or breaker bar (without a cheater) then I'm breaking out the O/A torch FIRST heating that suckar then removing the blame bolt.

Still haven't figured out what I'm going to do.

Guess spend $$$. :mad: :mad:

Thanks for thinking 'bout me. This site is nice. :) :)

grumpy
06-24-2004, 03:22 PM
Hey guys. What do you think about drilling out the hole finding a bolt snug enough to go into the hole and welding the blame thing. Would it work? Opinions please. :)

grumpy
06-24-2004, 03:30 PM
Hey 'Ol Pilot. Just about forgot. Is mixing those two acids anything like mixing old fashion Ivory soap flakes and gasoline, boiling it slowly over a stove to make homemade Napalm?

Franz
06-24-2004, 04:28 PM
I'm not becoming involved with this current version of the ongoing saga of the Gilbert Chemistry Set.

morpheus
06-24-2004, 04:48 PM
Hey guys. What do you think about drilling out the hole finding a bolt snug enough to go into the hole and welding the blame thing. Would it work? Opinions please. :)

or what about drilling it out and putting a nut/bolt setup in it instead of the bolt into threaded hole or whatever is going on.

'Ol Pilot
06-24-2004, 05:09 PM
Actually, Grumpy, I was referring to the poor man's (dead man's?) way of making nitroglycerine - just in case your heart needs it of course after a session under the van!

I think it's time to talk about the "H" word. Helicoil, that is. Any chance of getting it drilled out completely and inserting a Helicoil? NAPA auto parts stores and others stock Helicoil kits. I'd talk to the counter guy or better yet, their machine shop guy. Or you could take the axle to them and have them Helicoil it for a nominal fee. I think I'd quit beating on it - you may work harden it and make it worse. Of course, on the other hand, maybe all the heat you've used has annealed it and made it softer.

grumpy
06-24-2004, 06:46 PM
Ya know I was thinking about this A.M. But not Helicoil. I was thinking more like E-Z Lok Thread Inserts. I'm familiar with Helicoil. I was asking some buddies today what they about the stress of the inserts and they believe it wouldn't be as strong. The original bolt went into the axle (I can't explain the part other than a hunk of metal about 1" in dia by about 1.5" long. The bolt went all the way through. Just looked at a catalog with those "things" and it didn't even specify the length. Maybe I'll go to Fastenal tomorrow and check them out. But the way I was thinking was the stress on the helicoil and ez-lok would be more than they could carry and would shortly give.

Good thought though.

Yes I thought about using a bolt and nut but the area behind the axle does not have enough room for a bolt or nut (just about 1/8" or so.

As for heat I didn't get it red hot for fear of altering the metal characteristics.

Thanks for the input and please continue. Between us there HAS to be a solution.

Shade Tree Welder
06-24-2004, 07:12 PM
Grumpy, can you post a picture?

Crithpy Critter
06-24-2004, 09:11 PM
could this bolt be reverse threads???

did the nut have little notches on it??

grumpy
06-24-2004, 09:49 PM
Crithpy_Critter. Short answer no. It was removed less than 6 months ago. Had I not done that I would consider than an approach. Thanks anyway.

MotorDoctor
06-24-2004, 11:01 PM
Question: If I was to soak a ferrous bolt broken off in aluminum with Nitric acid how long would it take to dissolve the bolt? Does Nitric Acid attack stainless steel also? Never tried that approach but I'm open for anything. The left hand drill bits only work for me if the bolt isn't seized in the hole, but it does come in handy.

Franz
06-24-2004, 11:13 PM
MD, slow down. A steel bolt, or tap or whatever that is stuck in aluminum can be disolved with alum and water. The aluminum won't be effected, but the steel will disolve.
I'm pretty sure there is a thread on this technique either on practical machinist or Chaski.

grumpy
06-25-2004, 05:02 PM
Hey eveyone. Update on the stuck bolt. Gave up sent it to a shop. Yea, a couple of $$ but job done in 2 hrs. Heck, afterthought: Probably could have done it myself but with an injured shoulder lying on the ground didn't help.

I would like to thank everyone who gave me suggestions and tips. I'll file it away for later reference. Thanks again.

Grumpy :) :) :)

rusted
06-26-2004, 09:44 PM
Hey eveyone. Update on the stuck bolt. Gave up sent it to a shop. Yea, a couple of $$ but job done in 2 hrs. Heck, afterthought: Probably could have done it myself but with an injured shoulder lying on the ground didn't help.

I would like to thank everyone who gave me suggestions and tips. I'll file it away for later reference. Thanks again.

Grumpy :) :) :)

That's great an' all, but how did they fix it? :D

grumpy
06-27-2004, 06:42 PM
Rusted would you believe the same way I would have. They drilled and tapped. Simple, huh? They had a lift--I didn't. Just couldn't take lying on the ground any longer--frustrated and getting old. :eek: